chief white house correspondent at "the new york times," peter baker, have a great weekend. thank you for getting up "way too early" on this friday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. crooked joe wants this prosecutor, the deranged guy, to take away my first amendment right so i can't speak. listen to this, we don't want you to speak about the case. i'll talk about it, i will. they're not talking about my first amendment right. >> welcome to "morning joe." big donnie is right. they're not going to take away the first amendment right, anybody's first amendment right. he just can't threaten people. i mean, we'll kind of get into all of that in a second. great to have you here on "morning joe." that was trump again promising the crowd in new hampshire he's going to keep talking about federal charges that he is facing in the 2020 election case, including, i guess,

threatening federal prosecutors. today, the judge in that case could decide exactly how much he can talk about it. it comes as federal prosecutors are now pushing for a trial right after new year's day. cue up u2. we'll have much more on trump's legal issues ahead. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is -- i mean, come on, man, it's august. it's august. this is moving. this year is moving too fast. >> it's mid-august. >> you know, you get old like me, and it just flies, right? it's august 11th. with us, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. host of "politics nations," wearing tan today, the reverend al sharpton. >> looks good. >> come on, man. president obama wore tan, and look what happened. >> it was a big news story. with me, it's just another day. >> can you believe that? that was a big news story.

the president of the united states wearing tan in the white house. we have a -- the same people that were upset by that are now, like, "hey, it's really cool. we support a guy that's actually trying to overthrow the federal government." >> yeah, it's more of a news story to them to wear a tan suit than it is to try and put fake electors in to decide who is going to be president. that doesn't matter. have a riot that you watched there on television in the white house, and do nothing for hours to stop it. that's all right. >> yeah. >> but just don't wear tan. >> don't wear tan. i grew up in, like, northwest florida, where everything was poplin. you wore tan. i'm sorry, i can't do this anymore. i have mixed minus. it is like phil specter is in my ear. you wore poplin, seersucker, and you know this, you walked two blocks to the courthouse, and it is like somebody hosed you down. it's so hot outside. it's awful. we also have congressional

investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie alemany. and state attorney for palm beach, florida, dave aronberg. and staff writer of can new yorker, susan glasser. want me to try this? check. it's still there. if we plugged this up to, like, the edges' guitar, it'd work perfectly. a lot of echo. i'm taking it back out again. okay. listen, i know you told phil not to bet on the red sox. >> yeah. >> he wouldn't listen to you. now look. he lost $200 million. >> we told him. we don't have a starting staff. don't do it, phil. this is a fool's errand. story is out today according to a memoir put out by an accomplished and acclaimed, apparently, gambler, that phil mickelson gambled over $1 billion over the last decade. including betting on the ryder

cup team in 2012 while he was on the team. mickelson denies that, but it is extraordinary stuff. this gambler said it is pete rose territory. >> pete rose stuff, gambling on your own events. >> mickelson said he likes to have a friendly wager now and then. his gambling prowess is well-known, but these are extraordinary numbers. it'll raise eyebrows if it is, indeed -- it is one thing for a golfer to bet on march madness. it is another thing to bet on golf that you're involved in. >> did the red sox win last night. >> won 2-0. paxton was good. three out of four against the royals, which they're supposed to do against a bad team. doesn't matter much. >> it doesn't matter. >> no. let's get to the news. federal prosecutors have proposed a start date for donald trump's trial and charges related to his alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. in a filing yesterday, special counsel jack smith, not deranged, asked for the judge to have the trial start on january 2nd, 2024, to, quote, vindicate

the public's strong interest in a speedy trial, an interest guaranteed by the constitution. trump's lawyers, however, argued that it is the defendant guaranteed the right to a speedy trial. in this case, one would not benefit their client. they have until next thursday to propose their own start date, which is likely to be after the 2024 election. dave, i got a feeling, i got a feeling the judge is going to be a lot closer to the prosecutor's date than whatever date donald trump's legal team comes up with, because it is going to be so far removed from a rational date. >> yeah, i think this is the case that's going to go first. you don't have the complicated issues like the documents case. you have a judge in judge chutkan who wants to keep the ball rolling, so i think this is going first. this is still a complicated case, seven states, unindicted

c co-conspirators. not as serious as wearing a tan suit, but it is serious. it could be delayed beyond january, but it definitely goes before the election and maybe even the documents case. >> jackie, i mean, we've been looking at these different cases, and it does seem, does it not, this january 6th case, even though the scope of the crime seems so much larger to the general public, the actual charges are pretty tight, right, compared to the documents case, which, again, seems like they have him dead to right there. you have so many national security issues that are going to take a long time to wade through. >> we haven't spoken to jack smith himself about this, but what we have heard from experts, former prosecutors, people in his outer circle, is that this was done purposefully, in order to skirt some of the other delays and road bumps and speed bumps that could come up if his scope was a little bit broader, if there were indicted

co-conspirators. instead, he is going strictly after trump. even judge aileen cannon who is a bit more sympathetic toward trump had rejected their ask for the case being after the 2024 election. it's still sort of crazy to say 2024 election out loud. >> like i said, things are moving fast. >> yeah. >> it's coming. >> so if you have someone like her who is giving -- moving up trial times, it's more than likely judge tanya chutkan will rule in favor of prosecutors and jack smith. >> by the way, let's talk about judge cannon for a second. i haven't talked to you since that very interesting order that came out a couple days ago. she did a couple things that seemed bizarre. >> she did. she did something that trump's lawyers didn't even ask for, questioned the propriety of the grand jury that exists in d.c., and exposed it to the public. you're allowed to have another grand jury. >> why would she do that? she knows there are often more

than one grand jury. why would she expose another grand jury? >> it is interesting, joe. trump lawyer jim trustee was on a right-wing show and said that there is a problem with having the separate grand jury. this was the day before the ruling came out. it made some people think that, was that a message sent from trump's team to the judge? now, i'm not going to accuse anyone of impropriety, but it is peculiar she decided to do that when no one asked for that to be briefed. she said, now, i want you to tell me whether you can have a second grand jury. but a second grand jury can be used to investigate other crimes and to indict other people. so i think this issue is really bizarre, and it makes me think that we're back to the judge cannon of 2022 instead of judge cannon 2.0. >> yeah. and you look, jonathan lemire, not to get off on this issue too long, but, i mean, if you go to "the drudge report" any day, you see the mistakes she's made.

you know, she's just not had much trial experience. but in this case, it seems all the mistakes are breaking trump's way, at least in the documents case, which, again, why we are saying this, this explains, in part, i think, why jack smith kept his indictment so tight of donald trump. because he's in a rocket docket, and that thing is actually going to move. >> yeah, any 50/50 ball in this case is going to trump from judge cancannon. she's been deferential to his team's arguments, and that does seem like jack smith is trying to move forward on a tight case here in the election interference. susan, it's not just that it is january 2nd, the day after new year's, which trump was fiated on in his truth social post, but it is two weeks out of the iowa caucus. >> have they set that, january 15th in. >> it is the republican date for the iowa caucus. it is less than two weeks out. this is the first example of how

often that donald trump's legal issues are going to overshadow his efforts to come back to the white house. >> well, that's right. i mean, there's a collision course that's happening. there's no question about it, between the 2024 primaries and, you know, donald trump's role in courtroom dates in 2024. my concern for a while has been, though, that millions of reicill have ended up voting before these charges end up being resolved. january 2nd is an opening bid from the prosecutors. let's stipulate to the idea that the judge wants it to move forward quickly and that it slips not too much. well, that means you're going to have this extraordinary split screen spectacle of donald trump on trial in a criminal courtroom every day. you have to show up for that, unlike a civil case. right in the middle of the campaigning. so he will be basically fusing his campaign message is that he is a victim in this courtroom.

we've already seen, i think, a preview of the kind of vurtuprative attacks he's going to launch. i'm concerned we're hurdling toward an unprecedented, once again, crisis, you know, from donald trump. his incredible self-absorption is leading us right back into a national drama in which we're not going to be able to get this guy out of our heads. 2024 is going to be, once again, the personal drama of donald trump inflicted on all of us really. >> yikes. thank you so much for that, susan. we are now depressed for the rest of 2023 and all of 2024. we fear into 2025. we're learning more about the shooting death of a man who posed online threats to assassinate president biden and several other democratic officials. the fbi says craig d. robertson pointed his gun at agents early

wednesday morning when they tried to serve warrants in his home in provo, utah. agents shot and killed him after he didn't respond to their commands. earlier this week, robertson posted that he was preparing his camouflage and sniper rifle for president biden's trip to utah. the fbi says they've been monitoring the 75-year-old's activities online for months. it was confirmed that donald trump's own social media site, truth social, i guess they're part of the deep state now, alerted the fbi to robertson's online activity back in march. it was actually the responsible thing to do. the warning was prompted by an extremely graphic threat made against manhattan district attorney alvin bragg. first of all, thanks, again, to the people at truth social. it said that this is a real threat to the president of the united states. but as far as trump goes, it's hard to come up with an argument -- you know, dave, i'll

tell ya, when you're in law school, you're trying to figure out who is libel, there is the but for test. but for jonathan lemire driving, you know, driving wildly down a street after the red sox loss, take him from the scene, but for jonathan, there wouldn't have been that crash at the intersection, where doors opened up and it was kegs, kegs rolled all across. tough childhood you had in boston. but in this case, if you do that test, it's hard to imagine this man being dead, but for the -- and pointing rifles at the fbi and threatening to assassinate joe biden for stealing the election. it's hard to imagine this ever happening but for jonathan trump's continued lies. again, this guy keeps lying. and it's his most intense followers who pay for it. some pay for it with their

social security checks that they send to scam drives to help for his legal defense. others pay for it by spending years in jail because they actually listened to him leading up to january 6th. and this man paid for it with his life. he bought into the lies. he bought into the conspiracy theory. now, because of donald trump, you know, you could make the argument, he's dead. you can make the argument that he is dead because of donald trump. >> no, you -- and you wouldn't be too far removed from exactly that. look at the people that are in jail for january 6th that would not be in jail if it were not for donald trump. so if you go from january 6th, people that were convicted that are now doing time, to this man dead because he would post this kind of threat on the president, who donald trump was, until that day, saying was not the president, was a fraud and all of these things, you can't take

donald trump out of the story. it's like you and i grew up baptist, like an evangelist coming to town and conning people out of their money, that jesus is coming tomorrow. give me all of your money, and then calling their wives saying, "you know, your husband is spending his money irresponsibly." you lured them into doing it, and that's who donald trump is. >> you know what we called those people who would come to our church and tell them jesus was coming back next week? >> what is that? >> cuse-day. it was next week! hold on a second, the late, great planet earth. this may be to sell books or to get money. nobody knows the exact time when jesus is coming back. >> they did not wear tan suits. >> no, they did not. probably white, patent leather shoes, head to toe, big smile.

the hair that comes across, perfectly styled like lindsey graham, and all the people say, amen. all right. jackie, i don't know how i segue out of that one. >> well, i think we need to rebrand the suit. it is a camel suit, very fashion forward, expertly tailored. >> wait a second. >> i always liked you, too, jackie. >> is that camel hair? it may be. >> it's not camel hair. it's just -- >> no, not the actual hair, but that's -- >> more nuanced than tan. >> yeah. >> learned from obama. >> she's saying from my description of the suit, it is pedestrian. if you're fashion forward, you'd call it camel, right? >> well, there is this amazing man on twitter who talks all about expert tailoring. i don't know why i follow him, but i've learned a lot. >> what is his name? i need to do that. >> i'll find him. >> let me know. i'm hearing polyester is the next big craze.

i'm joking, mika. i'm joking. all right. let's continue to bob and weave in and out of all of this stuff. jackie, again, talking about the tragedy that happened in utah, it's really -- it's not just the conspiracy against joe biden and against democrats that's so deadly here. it's this constant attack against the fbi. >> right. >> since the fbi has been forced to investigate donald trump, getting his documents. they tried to get the fbi agents' names so they could be threatened. there was, you know, these stories about this fevered pitch hunt to unmask the fbi agents that actually did the search. >> right. >> but doesn't this show the cost of telling people, whether it's on fox news or coming for

donald trump, that the fbi is coming after you, they're coming to knock down the doors of your home and they're coming to shoot you, and you hear it time and time again. when you make a threat against the president of the united states, the fbi comes to check it out, your gun is up. again, hard not to look at all these lies and conspiracy theories against the fbi and not say they were responsible for the death of this man. >> i think it's really smart and necessary to look at all of these attacks in that context. of no one comes into donald trump's incinerator without being tarnished in some way. from the insurrectionistinsurre the campaign congress is running to defend trump against the fbi and justice department, all these have real-life consequences. >> talking about defunding. >> fbi. >> it is anathema to the

republican party and everything conservatives have stood for for quite some time, up until trump. but, i mean, when you look at the trail that trump has left in his wake, it's really important, i think, to talk about these sorts of cases and kind of lump them in and show that rhetoric matters. at the end of the day, you know, leveling all of these threats against alvin bragg, fani willis, we're just waiting for tanya chutkan to get thrown into the mix there, they have consequences. the fbi is just trying to do their jobs here, despite whatever spin we're inevitably going to hear in right-wing media today about sort of how, again, these talking points, that the fbi is, you know, a tool of the biden administration and has been weaponized. >> right. we should note, nbc is reporting just this week, judge chutkan has to increase her security detail. she had three agents with her yesterday just to get coffee where else in the courthouse. dave, the political rhetoric is

so divisive and heated, and violence is infused into the talk from the right. we heard donald trump recently talk about how there will be riots in the streets if he is convicted on any of these charges. we have discussed on this show quite a bit how law enforcement, federal and local, are deeply concerned that violence is now part of our political narrative, and we could see acts of violence. january 6th like acts of violence again next year, connected to the trump legal matters or the election yourself. you're on the front lines of this. how worried are you? >> it is concerning. the attacks on law enforcement have consequences. remember the attack in cincinnati on law enforcement? this is coming from the law and order party. that's why you have a hearing on a protective order today, coming in front of judge chutkan. to see if donald trump can disseminate the information he'll get. this is more than a partial gag order. i think that will come ultimately because donald trump is unable to stop the rhetoric. when he goes and continues to do

it, i think that, eventually, there will be a request for a partial gag order. but you only impose that gag order if you're willing to enforce it, if you're willing to possibly put a set of steel bracelets around donald trump's wrists. if you're not able to do that, then all the protective orders, all the gag orders in the world mean nothing. >> i mean, i'm sorry, people say there are two standards on trump's side. well, there are two standards going for trump. >> yeah. >> you and i both know, some of the, i'll say, stuff that he says online, that he says in crowds about federal judges, about federal prosecutors, again, in my experience, in northwest florida, that criminal defendant would have been called in front of a judge and the judge say, "you know what, you're going to have a night in jail to think about this." i mean, seriously. i think most people that practice in northwest florida would say the same thing.

then the judge would turn to the lawyer and say, "and if you can't control your client, you better have him find another one, or you control him. if you can't control him, you'll be in jail with him." no judge, no federal judges put up with this type of behavior. that's the bizarre thing about this double standard stuff. i laugh. donald trump has had a double standard breaking his direction from the very beginning. >> judge chutkan knows that trump is running for president. and there was a speaking indictment out there which detailed his alleged actions. so the judge is going to give him a lot of ability to respond. but, at some point, you cross a line. i think he's crossed the line already, and he's been given a lot of reference. ultimately, i think thereby will a partial gag order imposed, but the question is, will it be enforced? if you and i did this stuff, we'd have our leash pulled already. when you go to first appearance, you're limited to contacting the victims. you're told not to use alcohol

in many cases. so you don't have the same constitutional rights as someone who has not been indicted for a series of crimes. >> right. i know you have to go, but as an active prosecutor, reading the tea leaves, i'm curious, when do you think georgia is going to come? >> next week. i think it is clear the indictment is coming. i think, actually, that's the second strongest case. the strongest to me as a prosecutor is the documents case. that's an airtight case. >> yeah. >> i think the second strongest case is in georgia. find me 11,780 votes. he's on tape. nothing influences a jury more than hearing the defendant's own words on a recording. >> i'll tell ya what, i think the january 6th case also really tight. because you've just got the testimony of all of trump's people, basically saying there is this conspiracy. anyway, dave aronberg, thank you so much. great to see you, as always. still ahead on "morning joe," the latest from hawaii as deadly and fast-moving wildfires tear across the island of maui. plus, the house oversight

committee chairman james comer vows to escalate his stupid investigation and to escalate just how stupid he looks on national television by going after the biden, quote, crime family. including a possible subpoena for the president. how dramatic. i don't know if i can take it. also ahead, 2024 white house hopeful nikki haley signs the rnc's loyalty pledge, but makes one small edit, once again suggesting that joe biden may soon be dead. nice, light touch, nikki. records suggests that tommy tuberville, alabama senator, when he is plotting and scheming to hurt the military and the readiness of the united states armed forces, he's not actually doing that as an alabama resident. he's actually, well, he's from my neck of the woods, rev. he's from the red neck riviera. >> really? >> yes! tax records show he has been

living there for almost as long as mika has been living atop of her condo there. you see the satellite dish? she's going to move that soon. anyway, we'll be right back with more "morning joe." from prom dresses... ...to workouts... ...and new adventures. you hope the more you give the less they'll miss.

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normalizing this conduct. now, we have another president who is doing exactly the same thing. allowing hunter biden to run rough shod, making money from foreign governments and so on, selling access to joe biden. >> let's see, $2 billion, laptop. i don't think it's the same, but that is former new jersey governor and presidential candidate chris christie making a comparison company hunter biden and trump's son-in-law, jared kushner. the one very key difference, unlike jared kushner, hunter biden is and has not ever been a white house employee. so, listen, we don't like it, but it happens. billy beer, i mean, jimmy carter had billy carter. did reagan have siblings? >> bill clinton did. >> bill did.

sometimes, you know, you can't control family members, and you want to, but you can't. there's a big difference between that and people having to be pulled in line when billy starts showing up next to qaddafi in parades, and having somebody working inside the white house doing white house business and coming out the other side $2 billion richer. i mean, the comparison, again, i'm not talking about the governor here so much as i'm talking about all the republicans that are freaking out over hunter biden, when they don't look at all the things donald trump's children and in-laws got, who actually worked inside the white house. and got these sweetheart deals from saudi arabia and china while they were inside the white house, rev, working inside the white house. talk about pay to play. >> and i think that's the real issue here. when you have a congressional committee wanting to look at someone, whoever it is, that has

no real government connection, that is not under any guidelines of government because they're not working for the government, they're related to somebody that does. >> right. >> now, you're really overstepping what government ought to do. that doesn't mean we shouldn't condone it. it doesn't mean some relatives don't trade off of situations like that. but you don't have oversight over them. you don't have oversight over congress people or senators' cousins. >> yeah. >> so, i mean, that they're doing here is overstepping the authority of the committee. even though we all may say that was a bad thing somebody did, they have no oath or obligation to answer to a congressional committee because they're not a government employee. >> i mean, reagan, alex just told me, neil reagan owned radio stations. reminds me of ladybird, magically got licenses to tv stations in texas and became incredibly wealthy.

you look at the bushes. some of the bush kids the same. did very well on the side. so these republicans, i mean, they're sitting here looking at hunter biden, you know, and somehow missing, again, not only the $2 billion example right in front of them, but also a long history of this. >> i mean, jared kushner continues to cash out on the trump presidency and all of the connections he made with the uae and the saudis throughout his four years in the white house, in this senior job that he had. when he sensibly should have been advocating and negotiating policies on behalf of the u.s., but, instead, was fomenting and trading relationships with these people he continues to do business with. there is a long history of troubled family members and children in the presidency, in the white house. i think -- i've read the devon archer testimony several times.

you know, the headlines couldn't be clearer. devon archer says that joe biden had no knowledge, no discussions with hunter biden of the business dealings that they were doing. if you read really closely, i think the picture and the portrait that is painted by devon archer is actually a really sad one. one of a son who is exploiting his dad, taking advantage of him, sort of doing everything he can to capitalize on his name. selling this brand, that's absolutely true. >> and, by the way, we've seen it time and again, i don't think it's right. in fact, if i were in that position, i'd look at all my family members and say, "you know, if you do anything like this, you ain't going to have a problem with the feds. you're going to have problems with me." but it happens time and time and time again. and, again, we have an example of a sad situation here. these other -- i mean, billy carter is a sad situation. you look at some of the bush issues. you look at -- like you said, i

mean, it's somebody in the shadow of either a brother or a father or somebody else, and they go out and try to trade on the name. yeah, it's pretty terrible, but if you have somebody that's actually making $2 billion off the saudis, building a relationship off of middle east peace talks, off the saudis, again -- once again, the false equivalency is outrageous. do we have that clip of the poor guy, the poor republican trying to -- yeah. let's, you know -- sometimes, and i know this better than most, sometimes you should just stay off of tv, right? sometimes it doesn't pay. that happens to me about 75% of the time i get on tv.

but here's a congressman from new york that needs to give me a call the next time he thinks he wants to go on an interview. play the tape. >> despite nearly two years now of an investigation into the president's son, while you have certainly unearthed a trove of evidence that the committee says proves the president's association, there has not been produced a smoking gun. clear-cut, undeniable proof of the president's involvement with his son's foreign business deals. what do you say to that? >> we've never claimed that we have direct money going to the president, but many members of his family have rezceived money from foreign governments. this is important for the american people to know. >> i want to follow up on a point you made a moment ago, which is, you said we never claimed that any money was funneled directly to the president. that is precisely the claim that the chairman of your committee, james comer, and also jim jordan, have made many times on

public record. here on this network. >> we are putting an investigation together, laying out the facts between -- on the business dealings of this family. we are going to continue this investigation. i believe impeachment inquiry would give us more tools to get the job done. >> then at the end of the clip, gillian turner there, who was tough, gillian turner said, okay, again, we have to tell our viewers that they actually have claimed a direct line from hunter biden in these deals to joe biden. but, actually, the problem he had was, he's on a committee where they're lying, and he actually went on tv and told the truth. it was sort of cross ways with jordan and comer. but that is what they keep trying to claim, right? somehow, joe biden, dottering joe biden, who they say can't even think straight, is somehow the criminal mastermind of some international money ring. >> i mean, kudos to gillian turner on fox news for

fact-checking him in real time. >> great interview. >> she is absolutely right. comer and everyone on that committee has said several times, they have made these unsubstantiated claims and been unable to find the evidence to prove it. there is a direct link between hunter biden and his business affairs and joe biden. there is no such thing. they haven't found anything. now, comer is moving the goalpost. if they do need to impeach joe biden, they know there is no smoking gun, at least not yet. he now says he is going to subpoena joe biden and hunter biden. we'll see how far that goes. >> what i -- i've never understood people that say things one day and act like tomorrow is never going to come, right? so comer will say things like -- who is the guy, that testimony? >> devon archer, the star gop witness, supposed to be the smoking gun. >> they got their smoking gun. they got their smoking gun. it's all horrible. then the next, you know, the next day, you read the

transcript and you're like, oh, wait, this breaks in biden's way. they've done that time and time again. they go, "oh, we've got this tape. the fbi has a tape that shows we have this," and poor grassley says, "we don't care if he is guilty or not. we're going after him anyway." then, "oh, we have this great informant who knows where the bodies are burburied," then you find he is working for the chinese, has been illegally funneling oil. i wish i were making this up. >> bill barr looked into the claims under the trump presidency and closed them. >> right. he is funneling oil to the communist chinese party, iranian oil illegally. what you just said, jackie, we can't underline enough. any time these conspiracy theories come up or these

two-tiered conspiracy -- you know, there's two tiers of justice. everything they're accusing the biden administration of not doing, the fbi or justice department, it was actually the trump justice department and fbi. trump would say, "charge hillary clinton" in 2017. sessions' justice department, "mr. president, there is no crime there." 2018, he went back, "charge hillary clinton." what happens? the justice department looks at it and goes, "mr. president, there is no crime. we can't charge hillary clinton." same thing with hunter biden. it's nonsense. anyway, that's the thing, these investigations, trump's justice tried this. if they've got an issue, they need to get bill barr and jeff sessions and all the ags there. you wanted to say something, rev, jonathan? >> we keep saying there is no smoking gun. there is not even a gun here.

>> right. >> i mean, smoking or non-smoking. you're going to subpoena joe biden to ask him what based on what? i mean, you're the lawyer here, joe. you have to have a basis for witness. what are you bringing him here for, so ask him, does he know his son? >> right. >> he's not alleged to have been involved in any of that. jared had the tag. he was an official part of the administration representing the white house. hunter never was in that position. so what are you even talking about here that would justify discussing a subpoena? there is nothing there. >> in the stretch run of the 2020 election, donald trump asked his justice department to investigate his political opponent, which is exactly, of course, what the republicans are claiming president biden and his team are doing now. look, the archer testimony presents a sad and even unseemly tale for hunter biden, but there is no evidence there, no direct evidence that president biden himself was involved. but that's not stopping the escalation.

susan, i mean, congressman comer, who on one hand acknowledged that he is doing this because it's taken a toll on president biden's poll numbers, he's talking subpoenas now. he wants to go that step. he's giving new life to the idea of an impeachment inquiry, even after house speaker mccarthy a few weeks ago tried to tap the brakes on that. it seems it couldn't be clearer, that this is an effort to muddy the water, to come up with a false equivalency to all the legal trouble that donald trump is in, and they're trying to paint a bad faith image. same as the case with president biden and his family. >> yeah. the timing we are having this conversation is not a consequence. republicans from the very beginning of taking back over the house intended to sort of launch this kind of an investigation. they're essentially acting as a part of the defense team, it seems to me, for the donald trump legal troubles, seeking to distract and to have us talking about a whole different set of stories. in that sense, it is very much like benghazi. remember, it was kevin mccarthy,

i think, who said the quiet part out loud, about the benghazi investigation of hillary clinton that was meant essentially, explicitly, to tar her in the context of the 2016 presidential campaign. i think that's what we're seeing here. it is clear. we may see. i do not exclude the possibility that there will be an impeachment inquiry launched by house republicans on the basis of, you know, no direct evidence at all that they've been able to turn up related to president biden. i think it's about the death of impeachment as a meaningful constraint. with the prospects in the divided country of ever having a conviction in the senate basically null, whether you're democrat or republican, we're talking about a situation where impeachment has become another politicized tool in the tool kit for republicans. it is a messaging impeachment that they seem to be demanding right now. you know, kevin mccarthy, he

doesn't have a very big or solid republican majority. he is, in many ways, at the mercy of the factions at the most extreme of his members. so, you know, we're hearing this chatter all throughout the august recess. when congress comes back in september, i would not at all be surprised that they move forward with more investigations. the more donald trump is indicted, the more his defense team and the house republicans becomes a part of his legal case. >> yeah. you know, susan, there is a cost to that, though, for republicans. think about the number of republicans that won in biden districts. those people -- every time these republicans go down a crazy trail, they're the ones that end up paying the price for it. it is interesting, in your new piece, before we let you know, i want you to talk about your new piece, because you talk about what the 2024 election is going to be about. it is going to be bidenomics versus the trump freak show.

fascinating piece. in those districts, in those biden districts, those swing districts, they're going to be curious. they're actually going to want to know what their government has done for them. they're going to want to know, has bidenomics worked for them? they're not going to be interested in this trump freak show. seems to me there are costs for this sort of behavior, aren't there? >> well, i think, you know, you're absolutely right, joe. for the last few election cycles, you've seen democrats again and again go with the idea that we're going to campaign around a sort of vision, at least for the u.s., as some kind of a positive agenda. that's why you have president biden traveling around the country right now, talking about some of those positive economic indicators. low unemployment, inflation seems to be easing. the recovery is in full steam. there's investments from things like the infrastructure bill are now kicking in, and there are actually groundbreakings and the like.

i think the point about the politics is an important point. the republican party has become the trump party. they don't seem to have, especially if they go for trump as their nominee again, there's not a positive agenda for governing that they're offering people looking ahead to 2024. i just keep thinking about that most telling data point from the 2020 campaign, which is, when the republicans met in their convention, they didn't even approve a platform for the first time that anyone can remember. their platform was literally, we support whatever donald trump wants. trump has said his campaign in 2024 is about revenge. it's about weaponizing the deep state, and he is going to take it back over. he's going to seek retribution against his enemies. that's not a programming for the country. those are radically different visions of politics. >> susan glasser, thank you, as always. read susan's piece for "the new yorker" titled, "2024

preview: bidenomics versus the trump freak show." it's online right now. coming you, a new nbc news exclusive on the heels of senator joe manchin considering becoming an independent. we're learning more about his fraught relationship with the white house as he weighs a possible 2024 run against president biden. how the move could impact the president's re-election chances, coming up next on "morning joe." ♪♪ with fastsigns, create striking custom visuals that inspire pride district-wide. ♪♪ fastsigns. make your statement. ever since i retired, i've had trouble falling asleep and staying asleep - you know, insomnia. which was making my days feel like an uphill battle. that is, until i discovered something different, quviviq - a once-nightly fda approved

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new reporting into nbc news highlighting the chinese communist party's effort to track down members of the uighur ethnic minority group who have fled the country. now, a nation that once provided safe haven for refugees are struggling to keep the chinese government at bay. nbc news chief international

correspondent keir simmons joins us live from london with that story. keir, so help me understand something. i -- we're all aware that the uighurs, maybe 2 million of them, were put into glorified concentration camp because china is trying to homogenize the entire culture there. i'm curious, why would they care about uighurs that escape and that immigrate to other countries? why are they so, so dead set on stopping these people out of existence? >> reporter: you know, joe, that question goes right to the key point. let me map it out like this. first, going back years, you have the chinese government accusing members of that uighur community and other minority communities in xinjiang of separatism and, the chinese government says, terrorism. then implements this policy of

putting, as you mentioned, more than million is reported, into what the chinese call reeducation camps, which others call internment camps. that sends shock waves around the world. people are stunned and appalled by it around the world, and many, many uighurs speak out about their treatment. now, what we've been investigating, the allegation is that the chinese government is kind of going around the world, if you'd like, trying to silence those uighurs. trying to silence them by putting pressure on them relating to their families, even potentially trying to bribe them. or, in one case which we've focused on, putting out an interpol red notice to have somebody arrested, which then gets dropped. this man, joe, has been in prison in morocco for two years, for two years, wanted by china. we had a chance exclusively to actually speak to him by phone. >> reporter: hisan is in a prison in morocco.

his wife and young daughter thousands of miles away in turkey, listening into our phone call, as he tells us about his two-year nightmare. >> sometimes, i cannot breathe. >> reporter: hasan was arrested by moroccan authorities, wanted by china under an interpol red notice, which interpol confirms has since been dropped. he's a member of the mostly muslim uighur minority from china. the chinese government accused by the u.s. of committing genocide against the uighurs. more than a million were put through what beijing calls reeducation camps, separating families. while in exile, hasan campaigned against that treatment. china calls that terrorism and wants him extradited. he says he is innocent. now, his wife and three children live in fear. you must miss them. >> i miss very, very much my family. i have a picture of my family. i cannot see this picture.

if i see it, i am very upset. i'll cry for myself. >> reporter: more than 50,000 uighurs have sought refuge in turkey, but they haven't escaped their fear of china. a new report obtained by nbc news documents disturbing efforts by china to target exiled uighurs. we have your father and sister. you'll never see them again if you don't collaborate with us, the report says one anonymous victim was hold. the report by safeguard defenders, a nonprofit human rights group, highly critical of the chinese government, describes cases like jevlan, living in turkey, who says his family was forced to call him from china and urged him not to speak up on human rights. when you got that phone call, did you believe that they were speaking -- >> i know that the phone call is belong to the chinese department. >> reporter: this man is a victim himself. how many of your friends and relatives have been imprisoned?

>> back and forth, about 30 of my relatives from my father's side. >> reporter: 30? >> back and forth, yes. some of them were detained in the camps for a few years and then released, and some of them are still serving. my father is serving 16 years in prison for nothing. my uncle is serving life sentence for nothing. my uncle in law, who was taken from hospital bed, is serving 15 years in prison for nothing. >> reporter: the chinese embassy in washington tells nbc news, china is ruled by law. it cannot be accused of torture, persecution or arbitrary detention against uighurs. it's not about human rights, ethnicity or religion, it is about fighting violence, terrorism and separatism. but this year, a u.n. working group concluded the detentions of uighurs was based on discrimination and their muslim faith. two years since he was

hasan told us he is innocent. what do you fear will happen if you're sent to china? >> if i'm sent to china, it'll be death for me. because china without any judgment put me in prison, maybe torture, something like this, for me, equal to death. joe, we talk about these countries in the middle. we talk about the competition between the u.s. and china. these countries in the middle, countries like morocco. one of the questions for lawmakers in washington, and i think for the biden administration, is what is being done? it is clear that a country like morocco is under pressure from china to send hasan to china. what is being done in washington to put equal pressure on morocco to say, this man has been in prison for two years, hasn't faced trial, and the u.s. sees that his position is different. that's where the battle is in

many ways with china for the american perspective, and i think that is an important question that people should be asking there. >> it is the difference between freedom and tyranny. keir simmons, thank you so much. we greatly appreciate it. jackie, really quickly, you look at the uighurs. you look at the crackdown on a hong kong. you look at the crackdown on political freedom, religious freedom under xi the last several years, the crackdown on the most successful entrepreneurs, going after jack ma and several others. it seems like it is one self-inflicted wound after another by the chinese, on the chinese. >> this is what you'd imagine the 2024 republican candidates to all be talking about right now. actually, the biden administration just leveled more sanctions against some of the companies that are utilizing forced labor of the uighurs in china, which has actually created a little bit of a problem for our supply chain, as biden is trying to push everyone

into clean energy. it is a whole other bucket of issues here. but i think seeing sustained pressure from the biden administration on beijing is something we're going to see even more of going into the 2024 election. >> all right. still ahead, national security counsel spokesman john kirby is going to be our guest. we'll talk to him about the proposal to free five americans who have been imprisoned in iran, and much more straight ahead on "morning joe." check. psych! and i'm about to steal this game from you just like i stole kelly carter in high school. you got no game dude, that's a foul! and now you're ready to settle the score. game over. and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage, well, you could end up paying for all this yourself. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, yeah, like me. thanks, bro. take a lap, rookie. real mature.

would welcome the president of a different party. i think it is insane that we are having those conversations in our country today. [ applause ] i so appreciate my blue state partners, governors who welcome president trump and we welcome president biden here. we honor this office of the presidency. when the president succeeds, america succeeds. we want to find ways to work together. >> that was republican governor spencer cox of utah making way to much sense. critics who are attacking him because he would even greet president biden when biden visited his state this week. jonathan lemire still with us. let's bring into the conversation the host of the pod cast "on brand with donny

deutsch," donny deutsch. tom rodgers. special correspondent of "vanity" fair and host of "fast politics" pod cast, molly jong fast. and mehdi. i used to say terrible things about bill clinton and his policies, and he drove me absolutely crazy. you know what i said to him when a hurricane came through northwest florida and he came down to visit? "thank you, mr. president. our small business owners thank you. our hospitals thank you. everybody thanks you." what happened? what happens when you actually do that? you go, "okay, listen, there are a lot of things this guy drives me crazy about, but maybe we can work on long-term health care for federal employees. maybe we can work on relocating people on toxic waste sites." that's exactly what happened. met him, he helped people in

northwest florida, and we found things, again, that actually helped everybody. it just doesn't happen enough. it's like, this is their jobs, for god's sake, to represent their constituents. when the guy from washington, d.c., comes in who can help small businesses and everybody else, let him in. >> you are not part of -- you were not part of the burn it down caucus, right? the marjorie taylor greenes and the people who were just completely crazy running hearings. >> well, people thought i was pretty crazy. there were -- you know, there were some pretty crazy, but it is more like with the leaders. they'd say, "hey, stop." >> right. >> "don't." >> right. >> now, there's none of that. >> mccarthy had no power over his caucus, and we see this again and again. that's why it took so many votes to install him, and that's why there's a one-person motion to vacate. he's just hanging on.

so the lunntiatics are running asylum. >> donnie, you were, of course, far more than just the podcast operator of "on brand with donny deutsch." legendary ad man, legendary brand person. you are. i had a close friend who was an ad guy in pensacola, and you were, like, you know -- it's hard to believe, but you were, like, his north star. look what he is doing in this ad campaign. look what he is doing there. i just say that to set it up, because, you know, if mika were here, she'd be making fun of you. we have a little free time here. but i have a radical belief that goes against everything people say about politics. people love seeing that. >> they do. >> the base may not love seeing that, but they are so hungry to have somebody stand in front of a camera and say, "listen, i believe in this, this, this and this. i believe this on abortion. i believe this on guns.

i believe this on balancing the budget. but, at the same time, i believe working with the other side. i believe in us debating those issues, doing our best to find common ground where we can, but spending most of our time working for the american people, working for you and doing that together." i really do believe that's, like -- you talk about the secret sauce, that's the secret sauce in the future of american politics. >> and the -- >> it's a revolution waiting to happen, of kindness, of generosity, of compassion, of cooperation. >> there was a gallup poll that said the number one thing people want in their presidential candidates is the ability to work with the other side. is the ability to reach across the aisle. you know, it's interesting, you said that people feel a certain way. we're voters. we vote. i watched that clip, and you go, yeah, like, you actually feel good. it's something emotionally -- you know, we're so used to the

combat and the antagonism, the anger, and you naturally lean back. the governor of utah talks about welcoming the president, you lean in. i interviewed chris christie, and somehow we talked about how when during hurricane andy, he took buff when he welcomed president obama. running for president in 2016, he had to answer to the fact that during a tragedy, he was locking arms with the president of the united states. it is ridiculous. you said it, joe, wouldn't it be revolutionary if somebody came on and said, "we're going to reach across the other side?" wouldn't it be revolutionary. >> right. most people when asked that question are defensive. the correct answer is, what, are you stupid? i have the president of the united states coming. he can help tom who has a hardware store on main street, whose roof got blown off, who is struggling. i'm not supposed to talk to him to help my people? what, are you dumb? if people are going to aggressively attack them for cooperating, they need to push back. this governor, you know, this

isn't the first time he's said stuff that's interesting. you know, huge trans debate. do we let trans athletes compete in high school and college? you know, most of americans, even the international sports federation that decided that post puberty males that transition shouldn't be competing against girls and young women, right? that's where most of americans are. in utah, they were trying to ban all trans athletes, right? he vetoed the bill. when he vetoed the bill, which they overrode, he said, "listen, here's the deal, okay? we're making a huge deal out of this. there are a total of four trans athletes in the state of utah. can we not find a compassionate solution to help these four kids? because this isn't about politics. this is four kids we're dealing with. can we not come together? we can handle four children, can

we not, regardless of what they're going through." i thought it was brilliant. i thought it was beautiful. i thought it was exactly what america needs to hear. >> it was human. the governor got fierce -- >> and it was human. that was the problem, i guess. >> yeah, and he got fierce blowback for that. he has other times, as well. you'll recall during his campaign, he shook hands with his opponent. they had a vow of civility for that debate. i also want to say, it is important, especially important to have a welcoming like that, which you should do all the time, for respect for the office and all that, but especially hours after it was revealed there was a credible assassination plot against president biden in that state, in utah. an assassination plot that was seemingly fueled by this online hate and rhetoric so often else espoused by the governor's party. by doing this, by saying this is our president, he is welcomed in our home, in our state, extraordinary important message. >> it is for both sides. you know, there are people i see

all the time that i think their policies are damaging america. you sit there and you talk to them, you try to figure out if you can meet them halfway. sometimes you can't. but you just keep trying. if you love this country, i think you just keep trying. now, we're all being optimistic. we've all gotten together and were holding hands, singing, "reach out and touch somebody's hand." make the world a better place if you can. tom, you are the harbinger of doom this morning. >> good transition. >> the harbinger of doom. you say, freak out, baby, donald trump is going to be your next president. tell us why. >> well, this was a very, very tough column for me to right because i'm cheering for the trials and cheering for conviction. >> you're cheering because you think he's guilty. >> absolutely. >> all right, okay. >> and i don't think we can be lulled into a sense of security here, that because of that, donald trump will not be our

next president. first, i think he has a lock on the republican nomination. i think that even if a trial does happen early next year, i think by super tuesday, march 5th, he is likely to have enough delegates to win the nomination before we have a verdict in a trial. not that i think even a televised trial is going to do that much to dissuade his primary voters with the advocacy of political arguments that will happen in the courtroom, that he shouldn't be convicted. and then i think, look, as we were discussing, biden can win a one-on one race with trump. the abortion issue is strong. the anti-democracy sentiment among suburban independent women is strong. it was strong in 2020. what's been revealed since then and how egregious the anti-democracy tactics have been, i think, would shore up

that constituency. but to the discussion you were just having, people want a reach across the aisle option. >> right. >> and no labels, which is a really serious third party effort to get on 50 states, they're already on some, will be a reach across the aisle ticket. it doesn't take a lot of deep analysis to look at what happened in 2016, where in the swing states, 4% to 7% of the vote went to third party candidates and drained away from hillary clinton. in 2020, biden was able to win back much of the vote because the independent vote was about 1%. the difference between 1% and 4% to 7% is a huge difference in terms of margins that were 0.4, 0.5% in the swing states. >> right. >> what i think may well happen

is we are going to have a trial before the republican convention. >> right. >> it's not going to stop him from getting the nomination. >> yeah. >> no labels are going to say, we have to have a choice between two non-felonings. we have to have at least two non-felons, and that'll drain away enough votes. >> i've spoken with no labels people a lot offline. they insist that their focus, molly, is on beating donald trump. people i've known for a very long time, that i trust. i was talking to somebody who i have the utmost trust for yesterday, telling me, this is all about beating donald trump. i said, listen, i don't question your intent. i don't question your motives. the only thing that scares me, and i'm going to keep talking to

them to figure this out, i said, "i just fear that you may be naive, and this is no time in 2024 to be naive." >> let's hope they're naive. if you look at the numbers, they're getting a lot of money from republican donors. they're getting a lot of money from the nelson peltzes. the question is why is nelson peltz giving money to an organization that is supposedly nonpartisan and not going to throw the election to donald trump? i think that is something they have to answer for. >> mehdi, thank you so much for being on. i always love having you on the show. thank god we have yet to be on opposite sides of an issue. in the post-trump world, that day will come. i wanted to ask you about the arguments on no labels. i just figured this out, because i'm slow, but if you take ralph nater's 2% or 3% away from the 2000 election, and jill stein's

2% or 3% away from the 2016 election, i think it's quite possible that democrats would have won every election this century. the question is, assuming, of course, in 2004 that it would have been gore running for re-election and not george w. bush, who won, in part, because of ralph nader, how serious do you take this third party threat? and what is the best argument, because i'm always listening to you, your book, "win every argument," incredible book, what is the best argument when you're talking to no labels, trying to dissuade them or trying to encourage them to move in one direction or the other? >> first of all, i agree with tom, that we should be very concerned about the prospect of a second trump term. anyone who thinks donald trump can't win next time around is not paying attention, wasn't paying attention to the margins in places like wisconsin in 2020, doesn't understand how american politics works, which is fundamentally a two-party

system. then there's a few swing voters and a few people that want to vote third party. the third party threat is very serious. it's always been serious. i don't think it just comes from no labels and a joe manchin type. it also comes from a cornell west, who i personally have a lot of time for his politics, but i think it is mad for the left to vote for cornell west when fascism is at the door. in 2020, west said fascism was at the door and didn't run then. i take your point on 2000. 2016 is a little more comp complicated. gary johnson was taking votes from donald trump. there is an argument about whether stein and johnson canceled each other out. we'll never know. the third party candidate threat is real, even going back to ross perot in the early '90s. i'd say this about no labels. talk about being on different sides. i disagree with you, joe. you're far to generous to the no labels people. when you say, i don't question their motives or their intentions. i do.

i don't know what the hell it is. molly makes the point, you know, we hope they're naive. it's a best of vanity campaign. at worst, it is a right-wing op. joe manchin spent years undermining the democrats in the senate, undermining joe biden, and now he is considering a no labels presidential run. what i would say to someone who pushes this line, and there are a lot of ordinary americans who do say, look, i just want someone in the middle. i want this kind of bipartisan candidate. i'd say one simple thing, that person exists. his name is joseph robinette biden. >> exactly. >> he is the guy of moderate bipartisan news. he wasn't my guy in 2020. people like me, more progressive, are like, is joe biden really it? in office, he is the guy he claimed to be. he wants to be the centrist, the moderate. he wants to reach out across the aisle. he calls republicans his friends. he's always -- >> right. >> he exists. you couldn't make him in a lab. joe biden is that guy who sings the praises of bipartisanship at

a time when one of our two prar parties is neofascist. i'm not sure what people want when joe biden is already running for president again. >> you know, it's what i've always said to my friends that have said, "oh, biden," my republican friends, "biden is left wing. he's a markist." i go, are you kidding me? >> yes. >> the biggest knock on joe biden was he was too kind to the banks and it credit card companies. he was is senator from corporate delaware. i've always -- i will say this, you know, progressives, pre-biden, got the knock of being unrealistic. i have been blown away by the discipline on people that i would consider to be on the far left of the democratic party. they have shown more discipline dealing with a guy, mehdi, who is extraordinarily moderate. he really is. if you look -- >> yes. >> -- at where we are between the left and the democratic party and the right in the republican party, he really is

the moderate. he ran against 14, 15 progressives in 2016 -- 2020. they said, we'll take the moderate. >> joe, what i'd say, you look at aoc. aoc has said in the past, in a european country, she and joe biden wouldn't be in the same policy. she's come out and endorsed joe biden for re-election. taking flak from some activists on the left. the reality is the left understands two things. number one, there is a fascist threat at the door, number one. number two, joe biden has governed in a progressive way and taken on a lot of bernie ideas, warren ideas. not as many as some of us might like, but more than we thought. you can build on that. >> you certainly can. here is senator joe manchin, speaking of joe manchin, saying he is thinking seriously about leaving the democratic party. >> i just can't, i can't accept either party to be honest with you right now. >> why don't you become an independent? why don't you say, you know what, you said you're not like the democrats today or the national democratic party.

you're not like the national republican party. why not say, you know what, i'll be an independent? you thought about that? >> absolutely. absolutely. >> are you gonna do it? >> well, i'm thinking seriously, what's the best -- for me, i have to have peace of mind, basically. the brand has become so bad. the d brand and r brand. >> you are thinking seriously -- i don't want to put words in your mao. -- mouth. i want to understand. you're thinking seriously about becoming an independent? >> i've been thinking about that for quite some time. i haven't made any decisions whatsoever on any of my political direction. i want my voice to be truly an independent voice. >> the democratic brand is so bad that unemployment is near record low rates. we actually have china hemmed in militarily around the region in asia more than ever before. i could talk for 30 minutes about how president xi and the military people there are freaking out at how effective

joe biden has been at hemming them in, from guam down through australia, japan, the philippines. i could go on and on. don't even get me started about all that democrat joe biden and republicans in the senate especially have done to continue to push back on russian aggression. brand? yeah, i don't know. anyway, joe's mentions, joe is a friend of mine, joe's comments come as nbc news learned the conservative democrat is not going to attend a white house dinner next week celebrating the one-year anniversary of the inflation reduction act. i must say, democrats turn cart cartwheels around joe biden for about a year and a half, figuring out exactly where he was on that issue. let's bring in for an exclusive on the story, nbc news capitol hill correspondent julie cirkin. tell us what joe manchin is thinking right now.

good luck. >> reporter: thanks for wishing me good luck because i need it. joe manchin's comments yesterday on the radio interview, teasing this potential turn to becoming an independent, we hear this time and time again. over the last certainly three years, right, since the senate was evenly divided, now they have a close margin, as well, he was teasing leaving the party even before senator sinema declared she actually would leave the party, right? back in december. though, if he is considering running for senate in the red state of west virginia, i'm not sure how much that helps him. west virginia is certainly completely different ballpark than arizona. he's trying to keep everyone on their toes. we know that he is not going to make a decision until at least december. we have about four, five, six months everyone until he decides what the heck he is going to do. but this is really notable because it is coming just days before the anniversary of democrats' signature legislative priority that, in many ways, manchin derevived behind the scenes. he had a lot of flak from republicans who spent the year and a half, as you mentioned,

where he was a thorn in the side of the democratic party, praising him for doing that. when he turned around and made this deal, they suddenly -- they being mcconnell, who is trying to elect jim justice in west virginia, the governor to unseat manchin, they decided to go on a full-out campaign against him. manchin, on one hand, is praising the bill, saying he wrote it and named it. yesterday, there was an interesting moment where manchin defended the naming of the bill on the west virginia radio interview. he said that this did reduce inflation. i think we have a graphic of part of our particle on the screen, where biden, just a few hours later, completely contradicted him on the name. he said, i wish i hadn't called it that at a fundraiser in utah, because it has less to do with reduing inflation than it has to do with providing alternatives that generate economic growth. obviously, manchin's argument against the bill is the implementation. the biden administration's

implementation of key priorities of the bill. he said they're not prioritizing and focusing on energy security and, instead, are catering to the left. just a few contradictions between the two men that we are going to continue to see more and more of, as manchin gets closer to deciding what he is doing. >> nbc's julie tsurkin, thank you for the report. appreciate it. jonathan, there has to be frustration in the white house. again, not just at joe manchin, but what we're talking about here. talking about bidenomics and how well things have gone. again, this is just reality. more bipartisan legislation than anybody else before. you look at what is in the ira. so much that, again, legislatively, so much more than anybody has done legislatively, probably since bill clinton. you look at record low unemployment. katty was saying when she was on earlier this morning, my god, the comparison between where we are economically and britain is, where we are and europe is, where we are and china is, where

we are and the world is, like, there is no comparison. inflation is down. again, it has to be frustrating for the white house. what is the disconnect between what they accomplished legislatively, more than anybody else this century, where unemployment is, where it is moving, and his poll numbers? >> there is great frustration. some, they think, is a communication issue they're trying to fix. we've seen the president on the road a lot in recent weeks, including the western swing, talking about the progress, the economic numbers. it's a good news story. they feel they need to sell it. they see the polls. they don't think they're getting credit. handling the economy is an issue where a lot of voters side republicans and they also side trump. that's something this white house is worried about. they're also frustrated. two senators, sinema and

manchin. the president had to call manchin a bit the last couple years to keep him in line. the idea of a third party challenger drives people up the wall because of the threat it does pose. it doesn't take much for a third party candidate to potentially tip the scales. >> absolutely. let's remember, the only two incumbent presidents who have lost re-election, going way, way back in american history, are carter and the first george bush. both of whom faced strong independent candidates, anderson and ross perot. biden is at 39% approval on management of the economy with a really strong economy. for us to think that in a three-way race, being able to talk more about the economy is going to do it, i'm not -- i'm just really skeptical that's going to get us there. what do you do? massive participation is what we

need. you look at israel. look how israel reacted to right-wing government. of course, it was after the fact. after the right wing had already taken control. what do you do beforehand? you register people who may well vote for democratic candidate. that looks like young people are the best opportunity, but, of course, they're very attracted to independent ticket as opposed to two old white guys. so it's a really, really tough situation. we have to wake up. we can't be lulled into a sense of security here. >> molly, what are you going to be talking about this week on -- is it friday? podcast drops on friday? >> my podcast drops on monday, wednesday and friday. >> you work way too much. >> nine episodes a -- nine interviews a week, three episodes. >> nine episodes a week. >> nine interviews. >> interviews a week. >> yeah. >> friday, what are you talking about? >> there's a lot of anxiety that there is going to be a government shutdown in september. >> right. >> i see this republican party,

this house gop really heading towards it. they're going to come back and -- september 12th, i think, and it is just going to be a lot of drama. i think that's going to be a real problem. so i'm looking at that. then the senate map, this supposedly bad senate map may actually not be quite as bad if you look at the ohio numbers and you extrapolate from there. thinking about that. >> can we just talk really briefly about abortion? again, here's an issue -- and somebody said this earlier this week. i loved it because it is true politically. this is not just the dog chasing the car, catching the car and not knowing what to do with the car. this is the dog chasing the car, catching the car, the car is stopping and running over it, like, ten times, forwards and backwards. >> yeah. >> the issue of abortion, right now, undefeated. >> yeah. >> americans are mad. i will tell you, there's

always -- focus groups, you know, sometimes you're like, come on, man. there have been a couple focus groups that really cut through. there was one back in '16, where we had a woman, a working class woman who loved harleys, tattoos all over here, and they said, "well, you like donald trump?" the answer was, "because he's one of us." we looked around the table, like, oh, we know where this is going. it's not good. but the other was elise jordan talking to a guy who was all in on every trump conspiracy. this was in georgia last year. every trump conspiracy, he believed every one. you're sitting there going, oh, my god, this is real. then the final question was, what do you think about abortion? he goes, "are you asking me that question? i'm a man. that's none of my business. that's a woman's business. the government should stay out of it." that was another one of the moments where you were like, holy cow. >> yeah. >> this one cuts across

everything. we're seeing that in montana, in kentucky, in kansas, in ohio. >> yeah. >> and wisconsin. this is really a massive issue going into next year's senate race, isn't it? >> yes. if you look at 1973 and the roe decision, it was decided by a conservative court. they had seen enough pregnant women die, and they had seen enough of, you know, doctors afraid to treat to know that the law did not have place in the hospital. and this is what we're seeing again. so it's a real loser for republicans. i think it's been really underreported because it's been thought of as sort of a women's issue. it's not. it's a freedom issue. it's a doctors' issue. it's a medicine issue. it is a health care issue. i think it is going to blowback. >> i'm glad you brought up a conservative court. it was fairly conservative, a republican court. then you look, also, at the

southern baptist church, right? people just don't know this. my church was not only pro-choice until after the beatles broke up, they were pro-choice until after the eagles broke up! joe namath had retired from football for three years before the southern baptist church thought, well, maybe we'll -- i don't know, maybe we'll be pro-life. we're not sure. what happened? 1980, you had a southern baptist running in the democratic party, and you had three republican consultants say, "we have to figure out how to pry southern baptists and conservative catholics away from the republican party." mehdi, i say all this because this isn't an idealogical issue that goes back hundreds of years, and the conservative movement, no. >> no. >> like i said, southern baptists, conservatives, they were pro-choice until it became

politically expedient for jerry falwell, richard vigory and paul wyrick to drum this up and say, this is now a religious issue. >> it is the debate on the right, the idea people are doing this for moral reasons. there are pro-life who have moral concerns. but there are the cynical actors pushing this, up to the supreme court. talk about the dog chasing the car. if democrats hold on to the white house. if by some miracle they hold on to the senate and win back the house, democrats should take samuel alito on another luxury vacation. he'd deserve one. >> exactly. >> it shouldn't be harlan crow taking the justices on holiday. the democrats should take them on a luxury vacation, but alito wrote that decision. it has been a massive boost for democrats. molly is right, it is a boost because it is a freedom issue. democrats win when they're running on values. tom made a very good point

earlier. it is hard torre bi for biden tt me talk about inflation and jobs. it doesn't have the same resonance. people tell pollsters the economy is the stop issue, but what moves people is a positive vision of the future. when you emote, when you inspire, when you enrage. that's what you do when you talk about democracy, abortion, people's rights. republicans have owned that language for far too long, and now democrats are seeing the power and value in deploying it. >> mehdi, thank you so much. the mehdi hasan show is live sundays at 8:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. there are new episodes available to stream on msnbc and peacock on thursdays. thank you so much for being with us, mehdi. we loverogers, we're going to b reading your piece online this morning for "newsweek." molly, thank you. "fast politics," monday, wednesday, friday, "vanity fair" articles dropping left and

right. how do you have time to do anything else? >> all i do is work. all i do is work. >> sounds like it. all right. fascinating times. turning now to the deal the white house announced with tehran to move five americans from prison on house arrest in exchange, sources say, the white house has agreed to free up $6 billion in iranian assets for humanitarian purposes. the money had been held up. let's bring in coordinator for strategic communications tat white house, rear admiral john kirby. tell us about this deal. >> we're still negotiating the deal, joe, so we're careful about how much we put out in a public space. we're glad these five americans are now out of evan prison. that is a good thing. it is a good first step. there's a lot more steps to come here. now, i've seen the speculation and the criticism about this $6 billion. i think you characterize it exactly right. i think it is important to remember, again, without getting too far ahead of where we are in the negotiating process, that what we're talking about here are iranian funds that were in a

south korean account that they couldn't access for a lot of technical reasons. this was an account set up by the previous administration. they did it with south korea and seven other countries, under a significant reduction exception program. it was a way to discourage countries from importing iranian oil. the iranians couldn't get the account unfrozen and couldn't get access to it. we're talking about moving it to qatar where they can get access to it, but only for discreet, limited and narrow humanitarian purposes. the united states and qatar and aid organizations will have the right to veto any withdrawal request, to make sure it is going to the iranian people and not the regime. the regime won't get a dime. it is designed for food, medicine, medical equipment for the iranian people. again, this is a move that would make it accessible to them. >> admiral, good morning. it is jonathan. there certainly has been some pushback, though, that there is

a sense this could be incentivizing, you know, hostage taking like this. respond to that if you will. more than that, what is the level of concern there in the administration that these are not rogue terrorist groups taking hostages. we've seen a rise in state-sponsored prisoner taking, state-sponsored hostage taking by the iranians and, russia and elsewhere. >> it is deeply concerning, jonathan. that's why the state department has a new label for detention risk for countries around the world. it is now state actors, official governments that are reaching out and trying to detain foreigners, including americans. look, i mean, as for the -- this is going to give them an excuse to do more, it is not like the regime in iran needed another excuse to see value in detaining americans, any more than mr. putin did. it is dangerous in some of these countries, and that's why we warn people before you go. you ought to check out the state department's website. look at the travel advisories.

make an informed decision before you go to a country like russia or iran, where a detention risk is a real possibility. that said, jonathan, if that happens to you, you need to know that this administration and this president is going to do everything we can to get you home. we're going to do that as fast as we can. we're going to keep your families informed. if it means making tough decisions, well, we'll make those tough decisions. >> admiral, you mentioned vladimir putin of russia, and the kremlin has suggested that he is considering attending next month's g20 meeting, which is, of course, in india. it is being held in new delhi. president biden will be in attendance, as well. this will be, if putin were to go, the first international gathering with western nations since the invasion of ukraine. what is your response to this? if putin does go, how would you guys handle it? >> first of all, it'd be up to mr. putin to decide whether he is going to leave his country. he hasn't done so yet for any major international venues like the g20.

we'll see if it actually pans out. what we're going to do is stay focused on the g20 agenda. part of that agenda is going to be a strong pushback on what mr. putin continues to do in ukraine. i mean, we saw the last g20, last g7, a lot of countries around the world, the international community, deeply concerned about what mr. putin is doing and looking for ways to continue to hold him accountable. that's not going to change whether he shows up or not. >> admiral, help me out here. what's the strategy on china? i was just complimenting the white house for doing what every white house this century has said they were going to do and have a pivot toward asia and defensively from guam all the way down to australia, through japan, i mean, philippines. it's amazing what we are doing strategically there. at the same time, relationship with china is extraordinarily important. every time it seems like we're starting to get there, there will be a spy balloon or we'll

have the -- our defense heads call off a meeting in part because we sanctioned the head of their defense. then the president through sanctions on -- of course, republicans say it's not enough, but there seems to be a lot of back and forth. how do we get this relationship on the road and moving forward again? >> this is one of the toughest, most consequential bilateral relationships that we have in the world. in fact, i'd go so far as to say it is the most consequential bilateral relationship in the world, period. the president knows that. he wants to manage that relationship in a responsible way. one of the ways that he believes is to do this responsibly is work at it in a competition perspective. we're not looking for conflict with china. we're looking to compete with them. the president believes, i heard you talking about our terrific economy, the president believes the united states is well-positioned to win that competition with china. it's not about decoupling, economically or politically and

diplomatically. it is about de-risking, is what we're saying. that's what we're focused on. how do you get that done? keep the lines of communication open, joe, and that's what the president has really been focused on. secretary blinken has been focused on that. the two teams have come together. we're starring to open up channels of communication to allow for that back and forth. we've had secretary yellen over there. we've had secretary rimando over there, john kerry went over recently. all that is to the good. we still don't have the lines of communication open with the military. when you talk about this relationship, the greatest chance for risk and the greatest chance for miscalculation and potentially conflict is in the military atmosphere. particularly in the western pacific. that's why it is so important to get those lines of communication open between our two mmilitarie. sadly, they're not really. there was a staff level meeting at the pentagon a week or so ago, which was a good sign, but we have a long way to go. >> admiral john kirby, thank you very much. greatly appreciated, as always. donny, you know, republicans and democrats both like to prove

they're harder on china than the other side. i get it. i've been a cold warrior my woel whole life. i talked about what china has done, from the uighurs to the crackdown on hong kong. i could do the list, right? i'm glad we're flexing our muscles over there, right? at the same time, we have to have a relationship with china. whether you're talking about peace, prosperity, the environment, whatever you're talking about, we have got to get that -- and this isn't directed to the biden administration. they're doing a juggling act right now. this is just an official washington, republicans and democrats alike, like, learn to do two things at once. hammer china for what they're doing wrong, but try to figure out areas of muture concern where we can work together. >> when anybody says, i'm worried about china, i say,

china owns more u.s. treasuries than anybody else in the world. they could bankrupt us, and we can do damage to them. we need each other. it struck me as you were talking, and you talk about how biden and the democrats have gotten tougher on china than the republicans have in recent years. you kind of go, every republican issue is following the democratic way. >> it's weird. >> it's so strange. what they used to stand for, tough internationally, now they want us to back off. for the military, for the police, for the fbi, you know, law and order. >> what about tommy tuberville hurting readiness? even voters in alabama, not his home state, but voters in the state he represents, in a poll, the majority say, quit hurting america's military readiness, senator. he's not listening to them. >> it is just -- so -- >> he is bragging while using russian talking points on primetime cable shows. >> it is just amazing how, as we talk about and as so many people

say, the democratic party has lurched too progressive, to your point earlier, no, we're not. as a matter of fact, we're trampling into red territory in every one of these issues. >> yeah. >> the issues that the republicans thought they were going to run on next year, the border, crime, so on, have all sort of fade -- and the economy have faded and are much more potentially strengths for the biden administration. back to china, i mean, the admiral did mention there, the real concern here is even though the governments are starting to speak again, beijing and washington, they're not on the military level. there is worry that there could be some sort of misunderstanding, some sort of clash that could lead to real violence and an escalation. there is a plan to have president biden and president xi jinping meet and speak again in person. they did last year just once at the g20 in bali. that could happen at this year's g20, which we mentioned is in india. maybe putin will be there, maybe not. if not then, there is an asian state summit in november in san francisco. they're eyeing that. >> all right. you talk about border numbers. border numbers are going in a positive direction. we, of course, see chaos in new

york. we see democratic governors, democratic mayors saying, "washington, we need help." we're trying to get eric adams on the show. hopefully he can talk about the crisis growing in new york city. i guess this is, again, the crossings of the border slowing down, but this is the result of all the chaos over the past five, six, seven years. still ahead on "morning joe" -- by the way, i can't say this enough, can't say this enough, when donald trump was running for election in 2016, talking about the border, under barack obama, illegal border crosses were at 50 year lows. they went up after donald trump became president. live report from maui amid the devastating wildfires going across the state. plus, reverend al's interview with vice president kamala harris. that and much more when "morning joe" returns.

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there is a passage in the scripture that says, beware if you bite and scratch at each other that you do not devour one another. i think in american life right now, we're starting to realize, we're devouring one another. >> yeah. >> and, yeah, you're right, every -- almost every part of american life is tribalized and factionalized, but it shouldn't be that way in the church. the very existence of the church is to mean a group of people who are recognized to god and to each other. from the very beginning was standing apart from those sorts of -- those sorts of factions. so i think if we're going to get past the blood and soil sorts of nationalism or all of the other kinds of -- kinds of totalizing

cultural identities, it is going to require rethinking what the church is. well, it was the result of having multiple pastors tell me essentially the same story, about quoting the sermon on the mount parenthetically in their sermon, tongue in cheek, and having someone say, where did you get the liberal talking points? what was alarming to me, when the pastor would say, i'm literally quoting jesus christ, the response would not be, "i apologize," the response would be, "yes, but that doesn't work anymore. that's weak." and when we get to the point where the teachings of jesus himself are seen as subversive to us, then we're in a crisis. >> i mean, eternal truths, teachings of jesus. if you're a christian, suddenly becoming politically inconvenient? that's former top official for the southern baptist convention, editor in chief of "christianity

today," russell moore, sounding the alarm of christianity in america. the author of a new book titled "agents of grace," how to bridge divides and love as jesus loved. daniel darling, that's the thing has become so intertwined with the church. the things that we grew up learning or i grew up learning in the baptist church, blessed are the meek. blessed are the merciful. blessed are those who suffer for their righteousness, forgive. how many times do i forgive? 70 times 7, turn the other cheek. suddenly you do -- you have evangelicals saying, that's the way weak people think. you say, no. that's kind of how -- that's how jesus -- that was the center of

his ministry. how do we reconcile that in 2023? >> when i'm talking to evangelicals, most evangelicals who are away from the internet and away from no disrespect from watching cable news, are really actually trying to practice these things in the places where they go to church and live their lives. believe it or not, most evangelicals aren't thinking about politics 24/7. they're trying to get their kids to school and trying to be faithful to christ and trying to help their communities, but i do think we are in a very divisive age and i think it's very easy to let politics or let the moment separate our friendships, and i think one of the things i'm trying to do with this book is to try to help people hang onto those friendships and say, don't let this moment separate lifelong friendships and as jesus said, as christians would be known by the way that we treat each other that we have something in our salvation in the gospel that is more precious and more timely than a temporary political moment.

>> yeah, but, you know, you say most evangelicals don't think about politics. by the way, no offense taken on the cable news statement, and yet you talk -- i talked to one evangelical pastor after another, and russell does the same, and andy stanley came on and said his church was split over masks. people making covid a spiritual issue, people, you know -- again, maybe evangelicals aren't going around talking about it, all the time, but it seems they have been infected -- a large majority. the people i grew up with, they all vote one way. they all think one way and seem to follow the same conspiracy theories. again, i'm just talking about the people i talk to that i grew up with, in southern -- one southern baptist church after another. how do we reach out to those friends of ours who will say,

oh, i don't read the news anymore, and yet they go to conspiracy websites? >> well, i think it's a minority. i think first of all we live in a divisive age. so, you know, with the digital age, with the global pandemic, with racial tension, these are interesting times and so i think the whole country's been caught up in divisiveness, but i think as christians we have an opportunity to show something different, and i think every family has a few crazy uncles. >> it's not a minority. i don't mean to be rude. it's not a minority. it's all of my friends i grew up with in the southern baptist church. it's not a minority. it's my family members. it's not a minority. there is a widespread infection across believers who used to think the story of jesus christ was the greatest story ever told who have substituted now temporal politics for an eternal faith. right? am i -- am i just -- do i just hang out with the wrong southern

baptist friends? >> apparently because, you know, the southern baptists i hang out with for the post part aren't thinking about those things. they're thinking about how to raise their families and serve the communities and, in fact, southern baptists have the third largest disaster relief operation right now. >> i know that. >> they're mobilizing to places like maui. they're in places like poland helping refugees from ukraine and i think we have an issue with divisiveness and we need to work on loving each other as christ told us to. >> right. >> but i don't think it's the majority. i think there are divisive people in every family. i think evangelicals like every family struggle with that, and i think many people are weary and tired of the fighting. many people are ready for leaders -- >> good. >> -- who will bring us together instead of tear us apart. >> i just say, i say it on this show and right now we're doing a lot of reporting on george w. bush who was moved to start a program that saved 25 million

lives in africa, and he was moved because of his evangelical faith. so i'm not disputing any of that at all. i'm just disputing and sort of saying what russell -- what russell is saying about my real concerns about where we are. let me -- let me ask you in closing, what -- what's -- what's your greatest source of hope right now that if -- you say it's a minority. i don't see it, but if it is a minority, how do we people together back again in the church so people like andy stanley can start worrying about teaching the sermon on the mount instead of conspiracy theories about, you know, pushing back on conspiracy theories about covid? >> well, my greatest source of hope is, you know, the promise that christ that he would build his church and the gates of hell

would not prevail against it. people are starting to get hungry again to come back to church, to hear about the gospel, to hear about hope, and i'm really hopeful about the younger generation. i teach here at a college with a lot of gen z students who are fired up about serving christ, fired up about serving their communities and going to the hardest places in the world. you know, anywhere you see human need in the world, you don't have to look far to see an evangelical christian rolling up their sleeves and helping folks. i'm hopeful about the church and hopeful about christianity on a global basis and pray that we can overcome our divisions here in america. >> god bless you, daniel darling. thank you so much. "ages of grace: how to bridge divides and love how jesus loved." thank you so much. it's great seeing you. >> thank you. >> i want to be very clear here, rev. a couple of things. first of all, i have always said, you know, when i went to hurricane katrina, the government wasn't there. nobody was there. evangelical churches were there.

on the ground first, and some ministries that, you know, i kind of looked at sideway, but there were young people on the ground, hurricane kakatrina. like i said, george bush was inspired to do what some have called the greatest government program of our time because of evangelical faith. please, nobody even try to paint me as being negative on the evangelical church. i'm just here very concerned about what i grew up with, and again, the conspiracy theories abound. i don't know -- i don't know where daniel is going to church, but, you know, they may not talk about it at first, but, you know, you get a couple of -- a couple of, you know, a couple of bites in at morrison's cafeteria, and it starts up. i mean, i joke about morrison's. that's where we used to go, but it starts up and the politics

starts up and it's always, like, donald trump is like some servant of god and covid conspiracy theories, and they start quoting chinese religious, you know, websites. it's just -- it's cults. i mean, it's crazy. >> no. it is crazy. >> by the way, i'm having trouble talking right now because i'm trying to process that interview. >> yeah. i hope you do because then you can explain it to me because i don't -- i don't really understand how we got where we are, but we are there. like russell said, we're talking about people now that are not just questioning those of us that may be considered on the liberal or progressive side. >> right. >> we're talking about people that are questioning jesus saying, jesus was too weak saying, love your enemies and calling themselves christians. >> don jr. told the crowd that jesus' teachings were too weak. >> yeah. >> they didn't work now.

turn the other cheek. that is just too weak. >> and they applauded him and he was not heckled or run out the church. we've always had differences in the religious community on those of us that were social justice activists and those who were not, and they debate the too, but we've never had with jesus. you're talking about people like those ready to nail jesus to the cross or say love your enemies. or say if you were without sin, cast the first stone. they are stone throwers now, and this is guiding a lot of the politics. so we really are dealing with cultism now. we're not dealing with religion as we knew it. >> and the thing i just can't understand is if you have the greatest story ever told y do you have to go to chinese cult sites to, like, push conspiracy theories? it's just bizarre. let's move on. i'm going to process that for a little bit, and try to figure

out exactly what just happened. i love dan, but again, his experience and russell's experience is not my experience is not a lot of people's experience. rev, you sat down yesterday with an exclusive interview with the vice president of the president of the united states. tell us an it. >> yes. we're coming up on the 60th anniversary of andrea waters king, and rather than a commemoration this year we want to deal with what is going on now, the threats to voters, the threats to women to vote, to threats to the killing of affirmative action, a continuation and a continuation of the movement that was symbolized with the march '60 -- 60 years ago. the first woman to be the vice president, first woman of color, first person of color to be vice president, and building up to this, i wanted to talk to her

about how she sees the country 60 years later, and it was more than i asked for. she actually toured me her private office, showed me her private office and i'll show that in the extensive interview on "politics nation." she has a picture of her mother who was marching against what happened in birmingham in the '60s, and a picture over her shoulder of thurgood marshall. so activism is in her dna, but she really showed a real concern of where we are in this country that we're talking now, where she talks about people are debating voting rights like -- >> right. >> -- we didn't settle that or women's right to choose, and a goal for women not being able allowed to speak at the 1963 march to now a woman is the vice president, we ought to be celebrating that, but also not at the same time seeing women

like those in atlanta now the target of the new people that killed affirmative action. i met with them when i came back to new york yesterday. we're seeing women under attack for funding women to get into business. >> right. >> we should not allow this to go because this is what the people fought for in '63 and they won. they made a barack obama possible. >> right. >> they made a kamala harris possible. all of that is being taken back from us, so that's what we're commemorating and building up to that. >> and you asked the vice president what the first thing was she thought about in the morning. this was her answer. >> our democracy. rev, i think everything is at stake right now. when a democracy is intact, it strengthens the people. it protects and fights for fundamental freedoms, individual rights. it's a fight for order against chaos. it strengthens. on the other hand, democracy,

incredibly fragile. it will only be as strong as our willingness to fight for it, and right now there are many forces that are attempting to purposely i believe, weaken our democracy. >> yeah. you look at january the 6th. you look at what happened in tennessee, donnie, where they kicked out two members for protesting. you look at what's happening all over the country. you look even at ohio where they tried to go from 50% to 60%. you look at what's happening in florida where ron desantis kicks out an elected official that got 67% of the vote because he doesn't like her politics, and she had 67% of the vote campaigning on those political positions, and like i said yesterday, this is what i don't get about republicans. so maybe she's a little too

progressive on crime issues for maybe my taste or your taste or the rev's taste or i don't know. maybe she is, but that's irrelevant. that's what she campaigned on and got 67%. what makes these people think there's not going to be a democrat or an independent in the future that fires people who are conservative because they don't like their politics? the -- the fact that these republicans think they can do all of these things and damage constitutional norms and political norms and it's not going to come back and haunt them later really shows how ignorant they are. >> the ignorance comes down to a single thought. the answer about what the vice president wakes up and thinks about, democracy is what we should be all thinking about. >> it wasn't a big issue in 2022. >> it became one in 2022. it's not the far right fringe, but the republican -- the establishment republicans. >> right. >> do you not understand that if

donald trump wins, nothing else matters because it's over? "morning joe" -- just to take a little example. "morning joe" might not exist anymore because donald trump has said as all autocrats say what they will do, and he has said, if i'm elected, i want the fcc reporting directly to me, and he will cancel this show. i mean, you need to think that -- excuse me. that extreme. it's over. freedom is over if donald trump gets elected. it's that simple. no other issue matters. every other issue sprinkles down from that. however you feel about the economy, however you feel about whatever issue you're dealing with, we turn into an autocracy. what our forefathers fought their years and years ago is at stake in this election. everything else is a sub text to that. >> you look at what's happened in hungary, and he regulated him out of business. what's donald trump done? he's said, i'm going to have control of the fcc so i can

decide what shows are on tv and what shows are not on tv. you have liberals all the time saying you need to push to have fox -- get the fcc to investigate this and investigate that. it doesn't work that way in america. it doesn't work that way at least in this america, but that's how donald trump wants it to work in his america, and now speaking of kamala, nikki haley signed a pledge, the republican national committee's pledge to support whoever the party's nominee may end up being. the south carolina governor posted this picture of her pledge yesterday writing, quote, all right, fellas. your turn. she also crossed out president biden's name at the top and wrote, president harris. nikki haley's repeatedly said, well, you know, i won't even say it the polite way it's written. she's just -- she's repeatedly suggested, jackie, that joe biden's going to die. so don't pay attention to the moderate white guy.

look at the black woman that's going to be your president. >> yeah. this is the conundrum that all these republican candidates are face right now as they're up against donald trump fighting for a little bit of oxygen as he is really the presumptive republican nominee, sort of toeing the line on these conspiracy theories, and basically putting out these dog whistles. not explicitly saying that joe biden is going to die or is not fit for office, but feeding into these innuendos, and a lot of what we're seeing being written on right-wing conspiratorial websites and from all of these outside figures, many of whom who are actually advising and in close touch with donald trump. i think you'll be seeing a lot more of this the further and further we get to -- the closer and closer we get to the primary. >> rev, nikki haley's been the most blatant making this argument, but others are doing it too.

they're trying to make the vice president a central issue this time around, much more than she was with 2020 with suggestion that biden will not be able to serve out the rest of his term. is your sense of talking in this interview or talking around her in weeks and months past -- is she aware of that? are they aware of that? how do they plan to respond? >> i sense they're aware of it, but i clearly felt she won't play into that because they're playing on the president's health which has shown to be totally crazy because he clearly is doing his job. look at what he's done to the economy. look at what he's done for legislation, but donald trump is only three or four years younger than the president. i mean, it's not like you're talking about a 25-year gap, and the i think that the vice president emphasized -- she said to me, rev. i'm glad that you have a diverse group coming for this march. the anti-defamation league is

co-chair with martin iii and i because all of us are under attack. don't underestimate that when they're using the president harris thing, they're not only talking about the president's health, but her gender and her race. they're playing the race card and you can't let this black woman in as president, and i think most americans will reject that, and i think she's wise not to play into that. let them stand out there in their own clearly playing that card and she will not engage. she's bigger than as a person. >> no doubt about it. you're going to have that interview. >> 5:00 on politics nation. >> what do you got on -- doing the deal with donny deutsch? >> i don't know. >> brand up with donny deutsch. >> as a matter of fact, that's my new game show on fox, doing the deal. we're in the hamptons this

weekend as you know. >> yeah. sabbatical or are talking to some of your friends out in the hamptons? >> i'm going close to nature. you paint this picture of me drinking an old-fashioned and -- >> the cup, yes. >> what i do is i take nature walks and go near the ocean. >> forest sightseeing. >> there's bunnies. >> i had some of my friends at shinnecock call me. you can't walk across the golf course. >> no. >> it's a lynx course, but they need you to stop walking across. >> i don't even know where to go with that. >> one other thing. fashion forward -- one other thing, okay? here's the deal. >> okay. >> if you -- stop moving your feet. it's distracting. >> that's distracting without me moving my feet. >> if you are going to wear loafers without sock, i wouldn't roll up the jeans. it's all i have to say. >> some say potato.

i say potato. >> if you are in the hamptons, try some khakis, right? >> i do, right. >> a light blazer, socks. >> light blue? >> a light fabric. a blue pop would work well. >> stick with the jeans. >> really? okay. >> right? >> all right. stick with the jeans. okay. jeans. thank you. >> or maybe some linen when you are out in nature. >> the thing is it doesn't hold. do you find that with linen? >> i don't wear linen. i'm a man of the people. also, i want doesn't hold. >> it doesn't hold. >> it just wrinkles too much. you look at it and it wrinkles. why do i want that? >> where was the show with don johnson? "miami vice"? >> yeah. i'm so glad "morning joe" wasn't on then because i would have to

explain away your outfits every day. i have been wearing the same -- doing the deal with donny deutsch. i have been wearing the same blue blazer. talk to meacham. he'll give you bass legions. >> i like to whip out the white bucks. i'll tell you how preppy my closet can be. >> blue blazer. >> what is a white buck? >> oh my god. >> the young -- >> donny deutsch, thank you so much. coming up, watch "ferris bueller's day off". the connection between president biden and his son's business dealings, the republicans aren't giving up. we'll show you what the chair of the republican oversight committee is floating now. rocks in the head. plus, the latest on why wildfires have killed dozens of people and leveled an historic town in the island of maui. just a tragic story. "morning joe" will be right back. a tragic story. "morning joe" will be right back

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federal prosecutors have proposed a start date for donald trump's trial and charges related to his alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election results in a filing yesterday. special counsel jack smith not deranged, asked for the judge to have the trial start on january the 2nd, 2024 to, quote, vindicate the public's strong interest in a speedy trial, an interest guaranteed by the constitution. trump's lawyers however, argued it's the defendant who is guaranteed right to a speedy trial, and in this case, one would not benefit their client. they have until next thursday to propose their next start date which is likely to be after the 2024 election. dave, i got a feeling -- i got a feeling that the judge is going to be a lot closer to the prosecutor's case than whatever donald trump's legal team comes up with because it's going to be

so far removed from a rational day. >> yeah. i think this is the case that's going to go first. you don't have a complicated seat of issues like you do in the documents case. you don't need to get security clearances and you've got a judge who wants to keep the ball rolling. so i think this is going first, but this is still a complicated case. over seven states, six different unindicted coconspirators. these are serious charges. not as serious as wearing a tan suit. >> exactly. >> enough that it could be delayed beyond january, but before the documents case and before the election. >> yeah, and jackie, i mean, we have been looking at these different cases, and it does seem, does it not, that this january 6th case even though the scope of the crime seems so much larger to the general public, actual charges are pretty tight, right? compared to the documents case which again, seems like they

have him right there, but they have national security issues that will take time to wade through. >> we haven't spoken to jack smith about this, but what we've heard about experts and former prosecutors and people in his outer circle is this was done purposefully in order to skirt some other delays and road bumps and speed bumps that could come up if his scope was a little bit broader, if there were -- >> right. >> actually indicted coconspirators, but instead he's going strictly after trump, and even judge eileen cannon who is sympathetic towards trump had rejected their ask for the case being after the 2024 election. still sort of a -- crazy to say 2024 election. >> like i said, things are moving fast. >> yeah, and so if she -- if you have someone like her who's giving -- moving up trial times -- >> yeah. >> it's more than likely the

judge will rule in favor of the prosecutors and jack smith. >> let's talk about judge cannon for a second. i haven't talked to you since that very interesting order that came out. she did a couple of things that seemed bizarre. >> she did things that trump's lawyers didn't even ask for. exposed it to the public. you're allowed to have a grand jury. >> she knows in cases there is more than one grand jury. why would she expose another grand jury? >> it's interesting, joe. a trump lawyer was on a right-wing show and said there's a problem with having this separate grand jury. this was the day before the ruling came out and so it made some people think that, was that a message sent from trump's team to the judge? i'm not going to accuse anyone of impropriety, but it's peculiar she decided to do that when no one asked for that to be briefed and she said, now i want you to tell me whether you can have a second grand jury, but a

second grand jury can be used to investigate other crimes and to indict other people. so i think this issue is really bizarre, and it makes me think we're back to the judge cannon of 2022 instead of judge cannon 2.0. >> right. you look -- jonathan, not to get off on this issue too long, but if you go -- if you go to the report on any given day, you see the mistakes she's made. she's just not had much trial experience, but in this case it seems all the mistakes are breaking trump's way, at least in the documents case which again, you were saying this explains in part, i think, why jack smith kept -- kept his indictment so tight of donald trump because he's going to actually move. >> any 50/50 ball in this case is going to trump from judge cannon. she's been very differential to his team's arguments, and that does seem why that jack smith is trying to move forward on a

tight case here on the election interference, and susan, it's not just that it's january 2nd, and he was fixated on the truth social post, but it's two days out from the iowa caucus. >> have they set that already? january 15th? >> that's the republican date for the iowa caucus. that's less than two weeks out. this is just the first example of how often that his legal issues are going to overshadow his efforts to come back to the white house. >> well, that's right. i think there's a collision course that's happening. there's no question about it between the 2024 primaries and, you know, donald trump's role in courtroom dates for 2020. for a while, the concern has been that millions of republican voters will have ended up voting before these charges end up being resolved. i mean, january 2nd is an opening bid from the

prosecutors. let's stipulate to the idea that the judge wants to move forward quickly. you'll have this split screen spectacle in a criminal courtroom every day. you have to show up every day unlike a civil case right in the middle of the campaigning. so he will be basically fusing his campaign message is that he's a victim in this courtroom, and we've already seen, i think, a preview of the kind of attacks that he's going to launch as part of both his legal defense and his political defense. so i'm just really concerned that we're hurdling towards a kind of unprecedented once again crisis, you know, from donald trump, you know, his incredible, self-absorption is leading us right back into a national drama in which we won't be able to get

this guy out of our heads. this is inflicted on all of us really. >> we are now depressed for the rest of 2023 and all of 2024 and we fear into 2025. we're learning of the death of a man. craig d. robertson pointed his gun at agents early wednesday morning when they tried to serve warrants at his home in provo, utah. agents shot and killed hi after he didn't respond to their commands. he was preparing his sniper rifle for president biden's trip. they have been monitoring his activity for months, and a senior officer confirmed to nbc news that donald trump's own social media site, truth social, i guess they're part of the deep state now, alerted the fbi to

robertson's online activity back in march. that was actually the responsible thing to do. the warning was prompted by an extremely graphic threat made against manhattan district attorney alvin bragg. first of all, thanks again to the people at truth social that said, this is a real threat to the president of the united states, but as far as trump goes, it's hard to come up with an argument, you know, i'll tell you when you are in law school and you're trying to figure out who's liable, there's the but for test, but for jonathan lemere, you know, driving wildly down a street after the red sox loss. take him from the scene, but for jonathan, there wouldn't have been that crash at the intersection. there were kegs rolled up. it was a tough childhood you had in boston. but in this case, if you do that test, it's hard to imagine this

man being dead but for -- and pointing rifles at the fbi, and threatening to assassinate joe biden for stealing the election. it's hard to imagine this ever happening but for donald trump's continued lies. again, this guy keeps lying, and it's his most intense followers who pay for it. some pay for it with their social security checks that they send to scam drives to help for his legal defense. others pay for it by sending -- spending years in jail because they actually listen to him leading up to january 6th, and this man pai for it with his life. he bought into the lies and the conspiracy theory, and now because of donald trump, you could make the argument he's dead. you could make the argument he's dead because of donald trump. >> no, and you wouldn't be too far removed from exactly that. look at the people that are in

jail for january 6th that would not be in jail if it were not for donald trump. if you go from january 6th of people that were convicted for those doing time to this man dead because of the threat of the president, and donald trump was saying is not the president and was a fraud and all of these things. you can't take donald trump out of the story. it's like you and i grew up baptist and an evangelist coming to town and conning people out of their money and saying, your husband is spending his money irresponsibly. >> right. >> you lured him into doing it. >> right. >> that's who donald trump is. >> we called those people -- do you know what we would call these people who said jesus was coming back next week?

>> what? >> tuesday. we heard that a lot. next week, and at some point, you would go, hold on a second, the late, great planet earth. this may be just to sell books or to get money. nobody knows the exact time when jesus is coming back. >> they did not wear tan suits. >> they did not. probably patented leather shoes, head to toe, big smile. hair that comes across, perfectly coiffed like lindsey graham. i don't know how to segue out of that one. >> we need to rebrand the suit. it's a camel suit, very fashion forward. >> okay. wait a second. >> i always liked you too, jackie. >> is that camel hair? it may be. >> not camel hair. >> not actual hair.

>> tan. >> tan. >> you learned from obama. >> she's saying from my description of your suit -- my description is a bit pedestrian. if you are fashion forward, you would call it camel, right? >> there's this amazing man on twitter who talks all about expert tailoring. i don't know why i follow him, but i learned a lot. >> what's his name? >> i'll find him. >> let me hearing polyester is next big craze. i'm joking. i'm joking. all right. so let's continue to bob and weave in and out of all of this stuff. jackie, again, talking about the tragedy that happened in utah, it's really -- it's not just the conspiracy against joe biden, and against democrats that's so deadly here. it's this constant attack against the fbi. >> right. >> since the fbi has been forced

to investigate donald trump getting his documents, you know, they tried to get the fbi agent's name so they can be threatened, and there was, you know, stories about these fevered pitch hunt to unmask the fbi agents that actually did the search. >> right. >> but doesn't this show the cost of telling people whether it's on fox news or coming for donald trump that the fbi is coming after you? they're coming to knock down the doors of your home and they're coming to shoot you? so you hear that time and time and time again when you make a threat against the president of the united states, and the fbi come to check it out, you know, your gun's up, like, again, hard not to look at all of these lies and these conspiracy theories against the fbi and not say they were responsible for the death of this man. >> i think it's smart and necessary to look at all of these attacks in that context of no one comes into donald trump's

incinerator without being tarnished in some way from the insurrectionists who were all charged for going and storming the capitol on january 6th at trump's behest to now the weaponization campaign that congress is running in order to defend trump against the phish and the justice department. all of these have real life consequences. >> talk about defunding the fbi. >> i mean, it's for the republican party and everything that conservatives have stood for for quite some time up until trump, but i mean when you look at the trail that trump has left in his wake, it's important to talk about these sorts of cases and kind of lump them in and show that rhetoric matters. at the end of the day, leveling all of these threats against alvin bragg, fani willis, and we're waiting for others to get thrown into the mix and they're

trying to do their jobs here despite whatever spin we're inevitably going to hear right-wing media today about sort of how, again, these talking points that the fbi is, you know, a tool of the biden administration and has been weaponized. >> right, and we should note nbc's reporting that just this week, the judge had to increase her security tail just to get coffee. the political rhetoric is so divisive and so heated, and there's so much violence infused into the talk obviously from the right. we've heard donald trump just recently talk about how there will be riots in the streets if he's convicted on any of these charges, and we've discussed how law enforcement federal and local are concerned about part of the political narrative and we can see acts of violence, january 6th-like acts of violence either connected to the legal matters or the election itself. you're on the front lines of

this. ? >> these attacks on the fbi office in cincinnati, this has come from the law and order party, remember, so it is a problem. that's why you're having this hearing on a protective order today. it's coming for this judge as to whether donald trump can disseminate some of the information he's going to get in this case against him. this is different though than a partial gag order. i think that is going to come ultimately because donald trump is unable to stop the rhetoric and when he goes and continues to do it, i think eventually there will be a request for a partial gag order, but only impose that if you are willing to enforce it, if you are willing to possibly put a set of steel bracelets around donald trump's wrists. if you are not able to do that, then all the protective orders and gag orders in the world mean nothing. >> i mean, i'm sorry. people say there are two standards on trump's side. well, there are two standards going for trump. you and i both know some of the -- i'll say stuff that he

says online, that he says in crowds about federal judges and federal prosecutors, again, in my experience in northwest florida, that criminal defendant would have been called in front of a judge and the judge would say, you know what? you're going to have a night in jail to think about this, and i mean, seriously. i think most people that practice in northwest florida would say the same thing, and then the judge turned to the lawyer and would say, if you can't control your client, you better have him find another one, or you can't control him. if you can't control him, you'll be in jail with him. no federal judge has put one this type of behavior. that's the bizarre thing about this double standard stuff. i, like, laugh. donald trump has had a double standard break in his direction from the very beginning. >> the judge knows that trump is running for president, and there was a speaking indictment out there, which detailed his alleged actions. so the judge is going to give

him a lot of ability to respond, but at some point you cross the line. i think he's crossed the line already, and he's been given a lot of difference. there will be a partial gag order imposed, but the big question is will it be enforced? if you and i did some of this stuff, we would have been polled already. we limit defendants' first amendment rights all the time. when you go to a first appearance, you're limited to contacting the victims. you're even told not to use alcohol in many cases. you don't have the same constitutional rights as someone who has not been indicted for a series of crime. >> i know you got to go, but as an active prosecutor just reading the tea leaves, when do you think georgia's going to come? >> next week. i think it's clear the indictment is coming and i think actually that's the second strongsest case. the strongest case to me as a prosecutor is the documents case. that's an airtight case. the second strongest case is in georgia. find the 11,780 votes and he's on tape and nothing influences a

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why would you send jared kushner to the middle east when you have mike pompeo as secretary to state? you have two accomplished men. you send him. why? we found out six months after he left office, $2 billion. from the saudis to jared kushner and ivanka trump. $2 billion. because he did all this and more with his family, he's normalizing this conduct and now we have another president who's doing exactly the same thing. and allowing hunter biden to run

rough shod making money from foreign governments and having access to joe biden. >> let's see. $2 billion, laptop. i don't think it's the same, but that is former new jersey governor and presidential candidate chris christie making a comparison between hunter biden and trump's son-in-law jared kushner, the one very key difference on jared kushner, hunter biden is and ever been a white house employee. so listen. we don't like it, but it happens. jimmy carter had billy carter, and reagan -- did reagan have some siblings? i don't know. >> clinton did. >> bill clinton certainly did. sometimes, you know, sometimes can't control family members, and you want to, but you can't. there's a big difference between that and people having to be pulled in line when billy starts showing up next to khadafi in

parades, and coming out the other side $2 billion richer. i mean, the comparison -- again, i'm not talking about the governor here so much as i'm talking about all the republicans that are freaking out over hunter biden when they don't look at all the things donald trump's children and in-laws got who actually worked inside the white house and got these sweetheart deals from saudi arabia and china while they were inside the white house, rev, working inside the white house. talking about pay to play. >> and i think that that's the real issue here. when you have a congressional committee wanting to look at someone, whoever it is, that has no real government connection, that's not under any guidelines of government because they're not working for the government. they're related to somebody that does. >> right. >> now you're really overstepping what government

ought to do. that does not mean we shouldn't condone it. that doesn't mean some relatives don't trade off, but you don't have oversight on them. you don't have oversight on congresspeople or senators' cousins. >> yeah. >> what they're doing here is overstepping the authority of the committee even though we may all say that was a bad thing somebody did. they have no oath or obligation to answer to a congressional committee because they're not a government employee. >> yeah. i mean -- so reagan, alex just told me, neil reagan owned radio stations. it reminds me of that lady bird, magically got licenses to tv stations in texas and then became incredibly wealthy. you look at the bushes. some of the bush kids, the same. did very well on the site. so these republicans, they're sitting here looking at hunter

biden, you know, and somehow missing, again, not only the $2 billion example right in front of them, but also a long history of this. >> jared kushner continues to cash out on the trump presidency and all of the connections he made with the uae and the saudis throughout his four years in the white house in this senior job that he had when he should have been advocating and negotiating policies on behalf of the u.s., but was instead creating relationships with people who he now continues to do business with, but there is a long history of troubled family members and children in the presidency and the white house, and i think i've read the devon archer testimony several times and the headlines couldn't be clearer. devon archer says that joe biden had no -- no knowledge, no discussions with hunter biden of the business dealings that they were doing, and if you read really closely, i think the

picture and the portrait that is painted by devon archer is actually a really sad one, one of a son who's exploiting his dad, take advantage of him, sort of doing everything he can to capitalize on his name. >> right. >> selling this brand, that's absolutely true. >> and by the way, we've seen it time and again. i don't think it's right. if i were in that position, i would look at all my family members and say, you know, if you do anything like this, you ain't going to have a problem with the feds. you're going to have problems with me, but it happens time and time and time again, and again, we have an example of a sad situation here. these other -- i mean, billy carter's a sad situation. you look at some of the bush issues. you look at -- like you said, i mean, it's somebody in the shadow of either a brother or a father or somebody else, and they go out and they try to trade on the name, and yeah. it's pretty terrible, but if you

have somebody that's actually making $2 billion off saudis, building a relationship off of middle east peace talks and off the saudis, again -- once again the false equivalency is outrageous. do we have that clip of the poor guy, the poor republican trying to -- here. let's, you know, sometimes and i know this better than most. sometimes you should just stay off of tv, right? sometimes it doesn't pay. that happens to me about 75% of the time i get on tv, but here's -- here's a congressman from new york that needs to give me a call the next time he thinks he wants to go on an interview. play the tape. >> despite nearly two years now of an investigation while you have certainly unearthed a trove of evidence that the committee

says proved the president's association, there has not been produced a smoking gun. clear-cut, undeniable proof of the president's involvement with his son's foreign business deals. what do you say to that? >> we've never claimed that we have direct money going to the president, but many members of his family had received money from foreign governments, and this is something that is very important for the american people know. >> i want to follow up with a point you made a moment ago which is you said we never claimed that any money was funneled directly to the president. that is precisely the claim that the chairman of your committee, james comer and also jim jordan, have made many times on public record. >> we are putting an investigation together, laying out the facts between -- on the business dealings of this family. we are going to continue this investigation. i believe impeachment inquiry would give us more tools to get

the job done. >> and then at the end of the clip, jillian turner there who is tough -- she said, okay. again, we just have to tell our viewers that they actually have claimed a direct line from hunter biden and these deals to joe biden, but actually the problem he had was he's on a committee where they're lying. they actually went on tv and told the truth, and it was sort of cross waves with jordan and comer, but that is what they keep trying to claim, right? that somehow joe biden -- who they say can't even think straight is somehow the criminal mastermind of some international money ring. >> and kudos to jillian turner on fox news for fact checking him in realtime because she's absolutely right. comer and everyone on that committee has said several times, they have made these unsubstantiated claims and been unable to find the evidence to

prove it that there is a direct link between hunter biden and his business affairs and joe biden. there is no such thing. they haven't found anything, and now comer is moving the goal post because they know if they need to impeach joe biden, there is no smoking gun. at least not yet. he now says he's going to subpoena joe biden and hunter biden and we'll see how far that goes. >> but i -- i've never understood people that say things one day and act like tomorrow's never going to come. right? so comer will say things like -- again. who was the guy you were talking about in the testimony? >> devon archer. he was the star gop witness, the smoking gun. >> the star gop witness, the smoking gun. it's all horrible and the next day you read the transcript and you're, like, oh. this breaks in biden's way. think of this time and time again where they go, oh, we've got this tape. the fbi has a tape that shows -- and then, you know, poor old grassley has to go out and say,

don't care whether he's guilty or not. we're going after him anyway, and they go, oh, we've got this great informant that's going to bring him down. he knows where all the bodies are buried, and then you find out he's an international fugitive. he's, like, an agent for the comm international fugitive. he's been illegally funneling iranian oil. i can't make this up. >> they looked into his claims under the trump presidency and closed them. >> he's funneled iranian oil to the chinese communist party illegally. what you said, we can't underline enough. any time these conspiracy theory come up, everything they're accusing the biden administration of not doing, fbi

and justice department, it was actually the trump justice department and fbi. charge hillary clinton in 2017. jeff sessions, mr. president, there's no crime there. 2018, he went back, charge hillary clinton. what happens? mr. president, there is no crime, we can't charge hillary clinton. same thing with hunter biden. it's nonsense. that's the thing. trump's justice tried this. if they've got an issue, they need to get bill barr and jeff sessions there. >> we keep saying there's no smoing gun. there's not even a gun here, smoking or nonsmoking. you're going to subpoena joe biden to ask him what, based on what? you have to have a basis for a

witness. what are you bringing him here for? to ask him if he knows his son? jared was an official part of the administration in the white house. hunter never was in that position. what are you talking about that would justify discussing a subpoena? there's nothing there. >> in the 2020 election donald trump asked to investigate the political opponent. there's no direct evidence that president biden himself was involved. that's not stopping the escalation. coming up, a top advisor to president biden's reelection campaign, j.b. prits ger is our

guest. and donald trump celebrated america's loss in the world cup, saying, quote, woke equals failure. he criticized the team captain for missing her pealty kick, adding, nice shot, megan, the usa is going to hell. there is a piece explaining why trump is wrong. "morning joe" will be right back. "morning joe" will be right back age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein

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see your doctor if your asthma does not improve or gets worse. ♪ what a wonderful world. ♪ ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy for asthma - because breathing should be beautiful. ♪♪ open talenti and raise the jar to gelato made from scratch. raise the jar to flavors from the world's finest ingredients. and now, from jars to bars. new talenti gelato and sorbetto mini bars. ♪♪ age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." i'm jonathan lemire.

it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. here in the east. reverend al sharpton is back with us. it will be a busy hour. federal prosecutors have proposed a start date for donald trump's trial on charges related to his alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. in a filing yesterday, special counsel jack smith's office asked the judge to order the trial for january 2nd, 2024, to, quote, vindicate the public's interest in a speedy trial, an interest guaranteed by the constitution. trump's lawyers, however, have argued it's the defendant who is guaranteed the right to a speedy trial, and in this case one would not benefit their client. they now have until next thursday to propose their own start date, which is likely to be after the 2024 election.

we should note that january 2nd date, less than two weeks until the iowa caucus. meanwhile, both sides are due back in court just an hour from now for a hearing on a protective order requested by prosecutors. last week, the special counsel asked the judge to implement the order over concerns that the former president could influence the case by sharing sensitive evidence on social media. trump's attorneys have since sought to narrow its scope, claiming the department of justice is trying to strip their client of his first amendment right. joining us now, former litigator and current msnbc legal analyst lisa rubin, who are in the courtroom for today's hearing. what are we expecting to happen in just 60 minutes or so? >> reporter: we're expecting argument in front of u.s.

district judge tanya chutkan about the spoke of this protective order. what i think we're going to see today is judge chutkan asserting herself, that she is in control of this courtroom and this trial. and she may also advise the lawyers present what the consequences would be for violating her protective order as well as what is and is not covered by what she's prepared to order today. you'll note that the former president has taken to social media all throughout this week complaining a protective order is against the first amendment. he's allowed to complain. what he's not allowed to do is endanger witnesses, tamper with the jury pool, reveal evidence to people who may be under investigation and threaten the integrity of the justice process overall.

>> i'm wondering how chose you think we are to a gag order and if you can explain sort of how a protective order is really standard operating procedure, something that all of us here at the table would probably be subject to the we were facing the same criminal charges right now. what does trump need to do to maybe have a gag order come into the conversation here? >> reporter: a gag order and a protective order are two very different things. a protective order governs the use of evidence in a case. a gag order is more directed to the speech of the defendant themselves. i think trump, while he's certainly flirting with the imposition of a gag order, is not quiet there yet. the kind of flagrant behavior is more akin to trump's ally roger

stone, who infamously placed the judge's picture in crosshairs during his own trial for false statements to congress. >> the idea of the proposed trial start date, prosecutors want january 2nd, which means the jury process could start before the christmas holidays. the trump team have suggested they want to have it well after the election. what's your best guess as to when we might see this trial start? >> reporter: that nobody is going to be perfectly happy. i don't think the special counsel's office is likely to get that january date. the jury selection process would begin in mid december. maybe even more importantly, their motion to dismiss the indictment and all the dispositive motions would be due in september.

the other thing that strikes me is that a december trial date would make it very difficult for the department of justice to supersede this indictment and add other defendants to it. imagine if you're the lawyer for one of those other potential defendants finding out that you've got a january 2nd trial date when as of today your client has not yet been charged. i think we're probably looking at a potential spring trial date. >> lisa rubin, thank you. we'll be hearing from you throughout the day. that hearing is now less than an hour away. let's turn to the deadly fbi raid on a home in utah where agents shot and killed a man who they say made disturbing threats against president biden and other officials. kelly o'donnell has the very latest. >> reporter: new details this morning about that fatal fbi shooting in utah.

when the fbi came to arrest craig robertson for threatening to assassinate president biden, vice president harris and other officials, robertson was armed, a senior law enforcement official tells nbc news, and he pointed his weapon at federal agents and did not comply with their commands. this video recorded at the scene early wednesday. robertson was shot and killed inside an entry of his provo home. not far from where president biden was expected to arrive hours later. >> ultimately there was a threat posed to an agent, and an agent fired back. >> reporter: the 75-year-old woodworker displayed his cache of weapons and graphic talk about violence online. a law enforcement source says former president trump's social media platform truth social alerted authorities in march about the alarming nature of robertson's threatening comments. truth social has not responded

to nbc news's request for comment. on his accounts, robertson declared himself a maga trumper and described part of his arsenal as a democrat eradicator. he showed intent to kill president biden and alvin bragg, who's prosecuting the hush money case against mr. trump. >> reverend sharpton, we noted earlier, credit to the folks at truth social for doing the right thing, for alerting the fbi. that rhetoric is created and fostered in an environment put forth by donald trump and his allies. >> when you look at the statements made and posted by the deceased, he was repeating his firm belief in what donald trump had been preaching and saying even on the social media

platform that he used to turn this guy in. he was the one that incited these feelings, just like he incited the feelings of the people on january 6th who are sitting in jail, many of them with long-term sentences now. based on him saying he was legitimacy robbed of the presidency, they rose up. you have people going to the capitol building talking about, give me mike pence. this guy from utah was no different. you can't take donald trump out of the picture. >> let's bring in robert gibbs and alexi mccamon.

january 6th, of course, we saw violence committed in the name of the sitting president. as i've been saying on the show all week, law enforcement officials, federal and local telling me and other reporters they are deeply concerned about the level of violence in our political rhetoric and are fearful there could be more acts of violence committed between now and the next election. >> i think the story you just had, i mean, that phrase intent to kill is something that sends a shudder up your spine. we know a lot of people go onto social media to yell out loud. the rhetoric in this case and what this person was yelling was entirely different. then you add to it just the huge amount of weaponry that was had and available to this person,

used and ready when the fbi came to arrest him. it's a toxic combination. you get worried that as we get closer and closer and deeper into this election season, the rhetoric is going to get hotter and hotter, and the ramifications could be tragic next time. >> the rhetoric from the right in particular has been so steeped in violence in recent months, a lot of it from donald trump himself and his closest allies, who suggested there would be riots in the streets if he were charged. there's no effort here whatsoever to take the temperature down. in fact, the leading candidate to be the republican nominee for president is only stirring the pot further and, i fear, going to create more incidents like this. >> it's not an isolated

incident. we can look back to the 2016 election when trump famously said he could shoot someone in the middle of fifth avenue and still get supported by voters. he encouraged his supporters to fight protesters who showed up and said that he would pay for their legal fees if they got arrested or got a lawsuit or something from fighting for trump. that has only continued even now that he's not president. i think back to june after the federal indictment over classified documents on the online forum "the donald" which is so extreme it's been kicked off of multiple platforms. users in june were calling for the public execution and lynching of folks like alvin bragg and other elected officials because they want to exact revenge for donald trump against the doj and against these folks donald trump has

turned into these foils for himself not just for political purposes but for societal change too. we're seeing this anger that maybe had been latent among many americans now that's encouraged to be openly expressed. what's so frightening is that folks are actually moving into the real world and acting on these things they're talking about online. >> donald trump was watching the rioters on january 6th on television and cheering on their efforts. there's been a lot of expectations, but an arizona judge has rejected efforts of that state's democratic party to keep the no labels party and candidates off the 2024 ballot. this, of course, many democrats fear will boost donald trump's bid to return to the white

house. no labels, a bipartisan group created in the wake of the tea party movement, was properly recognized as a party by arizona's secretary of state. the judge blocked claims that there were deficiencies in the paperwork that no labels filed to get on the ballot. democrats may be able to refile the lawsuit with new arguments. no labels has gained ballot access in several states, but the stakes are particularly high in arizona. group leader have said they'll stand down if there's not a clear path to victory. a lot of democrats, including those who work on 1600 pennsylvania avenue, are deeply skeptical of that claim and wonder what's really going on here.

>> i'm worried and i think others should be worried. take a place like arizona, 10,000 votes, it doesn't take much to start peeling off those voters and winwinnowing away th very small margin. the notion that we're not going to run somebody else we can win. the likelihood that a third-party candidate is going to accrue 270 electoral votes is zero. it was zero last month. it was zero yesterday. it's going to be zero a month from now. there's no chance that a no labels candidate is going to win. there's 100% chance that a no labels candidate is going to pull votes away from joe biden and impact this election. we've seen it happen a few times just in the last 25 years. in florida in 2000 we saw it with ralph nader.

and jill stein pulling votes away from hillary clinton. it could change the outcome of an election. meanwhile, new reporting is raising questions about whether senator tommy tuberville of alabama actually lives in the state that he representatives. the "washington post" reviewed real estate records that show the republican senator last month sold the properties he owned in the state of alabama for just over a million dollars. both are near auburn university where he coached football from 1999 to 2008. the records indicate that his home is actually a $3 million, 4,000 square foot beach house in santa rosa beach, florida, in

the state's panhandle. he has owned that home for nearly two decades. tuberville's wife is a licensed real estate agent in florida and has worked at a santa rosa beach real estate firm since the start of this year. the post reports she doesn't even have an alabama real estate license. tuberville's office is insisting his primary home is in auburn, that records show is owned by his wife and son and suggested to the post that the santa rosa beach property is actually just a vacation home. alabama law requires a person to be a state resident for only one day to run for senate. meanwhile, under the u.s. constitution, senators are required to simply be an inhabitant of the state when elected. the "washington post" doing good reporting here on senator tuberville's whereabouts. give us your take here.

this comes at a moment when he is already under incredible scrutiny for his efforts to place these holds on vital military promotions. >> that's the biggest point here, that he's already under so much scrutiny for what he's doing holding up these military promotions that this adds to the chaos around the senator. i've been getting e-mails from folks talking about the ripple effects on military families, the ones who are at home making the decisions about where they should go, whether the family should move. these decisions by senator tuberville are not just impacting one group of people. there are ripple effects throughout the country throughout families and communities that, frankly, i'm sure they're not caring too much about where he lives and more so want him to step up and do

something so they can move on with their lives. >> give us an update where this stands. is there any sense that tuberville will budge on this? if not, what workarounds, if any, does senator schumer have? >> that is the question right now. if he does budge a little bit here, it will be in large part due to the work of our colleague glenn kessler. over the course of the last two months, he's come out with a series of fact checks that poked holes in a lot of tuberville's claims. glenn most recently before this poked holes in his tales about his father's service in world war ii. then he basically proved that tuberville has not donated every dime of his salary to veterans as he claimed and campaigned on. i think the question is how much

does the totality of this reporting and these revelations ultimately sink in with voters? is tuberville going to feel increased pressure from constituents to take some action and due to the scrutiny, maybe try to change the perception of him that might be starting to sink in. >> you and i knew each other and worked together during the obama years. i know you have a good political nose. think about what jackie just said about the voters and the concerns of military families and the state of alabama. is it not whether the legality is there or not that you have to live in this state just one day, is it not a politically dangerous situation if people in the state, particularly military

families, knew that tuberville is really living in a $3 million beach house in florida and is really not an alabaman. the politics is a little more dicey for him than even the legalities in terms of his residence and what he's doing to the military? >> absolutely. i'm a born and raised alabaman. i'm from auburn. war eagle. i would say a couple of things that are really important, this has dogged tuberville from the time he announced his candidacy by changing his residence a week before he announced his candidacy. the impact of this is happening politically in alabama. there was a poll earlier this week written about it in the

news that showed a majority of alabamans oppose his holding these military positions up. this is a decidedly republican state. if a majority of alabamans oppose, that's a significant number of republicans voicing their concerns. there's the politics of that in a state that's deeply inculcated in the military sense, you know, forts and bases in and around there. the idea that republicans and democrats and alabamans have made up their minds about this, i think, is tremendous important. clearly the constitution and alabama law are going to give him a bit of a pass on where he lives, but residents are not giving him a pass on what he's doing to military families.

>> robert gibbs, thank you very much for joining us. we turn now to the devastation in hawaii, where at least 55 people have been killed in the wildfires ravaging maui. hundreds of buildings and homes have been destroyed and thousands have had to evacuate the island. now the search is on for those who are missing as crews continue to battle the flames. miguel almaguer has the latest. >> reporter: good morning. as that death toll continues to rise, now at 55, authorities are concerned they'll find even more bodies. by one account, upwards of a thousand people may still be missing. firefighters and emergency teams here on the ground are winning some battles and losing others. on the island streets where residents made harrowing escapes through raging walls of fire, so many others did not.

this wildfire now the second deadliest in modern u.s. history. >> i don't know what the final number is going to be. it's going to be horrible and tragic. it's a community, so the amount of loss is incredible. >> reporter: in this skeletal and now desolate landscape without power, internet or even radio, officials have no way to determine how many are still missing. authorities say hundreds of homes have been lost, a growing tally that's personal for families like patrick sullivan. how to you describe the emotions you're feeling right now? >> right here it's pretty tough. we'll be okay. >> reporter: from the air and on the ground, the national guard is helping crews battle at least three wildfires still burning on maui. the hardest hit areas are still impossible to access.

kimo kirkman grieving the loss of his home and his father's ashes. >> i took a picture of it. >> reporter: even boats in lahaina harbor were consumed by the inferno. victims say they were running as fast as the flames. many jumps right into the harbor to save their lives. >> anybody still out here? time to go! it's time to go! >> reporter: not all who reached the shore survived. residents say they found bodies floating in the water. caught with almost no warning, others perished in their homes or vehicles. an entire community surrounded by loss with one sign of historic hope, the town's famous banyan tree is the only landmark left standing. after 80 mile per hour winds

kicked up this blaze, the weather conditions here are improving. firefighters continue to gain theupper hand as they are still searching for the missing. coming up here on "morning joe," we're going to speak with a member of the biden/harris campaign national advisory board. illinois governor jb pritzker joins us as the vice president travels to his state today for a summit on gun safety. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv ♪♪

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gun violence brings pain to the entire community, and by extension, to the whole of society. as a prosecutor, i brought many

perpetrators of gun violence to justice, but i knew even after a successful prosecution, the hurt and the loss and the fear often still remained. >> that was vice president kamala harris speaking at an event at the white house last year when the biden administration announced actions to combat gun violence. the vice president will head to chicago today to speak at the gun sense university conference, bringing together activists and lawmakers looking to do more to prevent gun violence in america. the democratic governor of illinois jb pritzker is scheduled to speak at the conference tomorrow. he's also a member of the biden, harris campaign national advisory board. chicago is a city that has been

plagued with gun violence in recent years. what do you hope to accomplish? >> well, first of all, we're fighting for gun safety here in illinois. we've been successful in that endeavor and crime rates are going down and we're taking guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them. we're very proud that the vice president is coming. this is an administration that truly has fought for gun safety, probably the best administration on that subject in my lifetime. we've seen that they've not only passed the bipartisan safer communities act, which of course increased the amount of money for gun safety and gun violence prevention organizations, but also closed loopholes that allowed people to get guns who shouldn't have them. and i helped to ban ghost guns. we're very pleased that the vice president is coming to represent the administration and to let

the country know here in chicago that this administration is going to help to keep people safe across the country. >> governor, al sharpton here. i know of the work this administration has done around guns. i was with the vice president at the white house yesterday. it's very much a concern. as you know, many of us have dealt with this issue nationally. i even stayed in chicago a while in the housing reverend hatchett built, trying to deal with the gun safety and violence. tell us how being unable to get new laws on even something like background checks plays into the dilemma that you and others that have been successful to a degree, but could be even more successful if you can get stronger federal laws on guns, including something as simple as

background checks. >> i'm glad you mentioned reverend hatch and the work he's done. here in illinois, we have banned automatic weapons. we've banned assault weapons and switches and also high capacity magazines. the challenge that we have is that, although we've banned those now and that will be a supreme court case at some point because the right wing can't win at the ballot box on this exhibit, so they take it to court. but the challenge we have is that guns come from across the border. in indiana, 60% of the violent crime in chicago where a gun was used, those guns came from indiana. we've seen that guns are coming in from kentucky and missouri and wisconsin and iowa, our

surrounding states that have lax gun laws. we can do everything we can in illinois to keep people safe by banning assault weapons, but if they come in over the border, that's an easy thing. i went to washington with the mayor of highland park, where we had a terrible tragedy where an ar-15 style weapon was used to kill seven people and injure 48 others. we talked to the president directly about the fact that we need a national ban on these assault weapons and switches and high capacity magazines. he wants that to happen too. it's the congress, republicans particularly in congress, that will hold that up. that's why people have got to get to the polls and vote for people who stand up for gun safety laws and elect people who will do so. >> there are a number of issues that are languishing in the senate right now, not just

various gun legislation proposals, but abortion rights, voting rights. have you had any conversations with the vice president or anyone in the white house about getting rid of the filibuster in order to actually get some movement on these issues in the next year ahead of the 2024 election? >> i think a narrowly tailored situation in which we would do away with the filibuster makes sense to me, particularly on these issues that are really about keeping people alive and safe. so i have communicated that to the white house, at least my view about that. of course, this is going to be a major issue in the upcoming elections in 2024. we need to elect people who are going to stand up for freedom for a woman's right to choose

and making sure we're standing up for people's right to go to a fourth of july parade and not get shot by an assault weapon as happened here in highland park. these are issues that i've communicated to the white house about. i know the white house shares my concern to make sure we're getting things past the congress that the president can sign that will keep people safe, but it is a big challenge. that's why this upcoming election is so important. >> to repeat the vice president, we'll be heading there later today. jb pritzker of illinois, thank you for joining us this morning. still ahead, a conversation on poverty and its legacy in america, which our next guest calls the injustice of place. and as we go to break, a reminder that at the top of the hour at this federal courthouse in washington, d.c., a hearing will take place to discuss the

proposed restrictions on what donald trump and his attorneys can publicly disclose about evidence gathered in the special counsel's investigation into his 2020 election interference case. a few moments ago, donald trump's defense lawyers arrived. there you see the former president's attorneys. federal prosecutors will also appear for the first hearing before judge tanya chutkan. "morning joe" will be right back. "morning joe" will be right back hronic migraine - 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more - can be overwhelming. so, ask your doctor about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start. it's the #1 prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment. so far, more than 5 million botox® treatments have been given to over eight hundred and fifty thousand chronic migraine patients. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms.

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for the poor and particularly children who have nothing to do with asking to be born into this world, but don't have enough to eat and no school to go to and need different clothes. they're going to lead a very unhappy life for the rest of their existence. >> that was then-senator robert f. kennedy. in april 1967 on a visit to the mississippi delta, one of the most poverty stricken regions of america. today it remains one of the most disadvantaged areas in the nation. a recent finding shows that the most poverty stricken places in the united states are, on average, rural communities of color. that phenomenon is the focus of the new book titled "the injustice of place, uncovering the legacy of poverty in america" coauthored by catherine eden from princeton university.

professor, thanks for being here this morning. congrats on the book. such an important topic and one that goes against what many people think of when they picture poverty. it's the idea that it's rural poverty of color. tell us more about it. >> i spent my whole career studying poverty in cities. a couple of years ago we partnered with the robert wood johnson foundation to turn our lens from america's poorest people in cities to its poorest places. when we put together the nation's best data to identify these places, we were stunned to note that virtually all of the clusters of the deepest disadvantaged were in rural areas. >> good to see you. i majored in sociology in college. i appreciate having you here. i wonder if you could speak to the different types of infrastructure that the book touches on and how that could help. we hear a lot about physical

infrastructure, roads, bridges, how that can help communities. but you talk in your book at social infrastructure and the need to rethink how people gather. could you talk a little bit more about that? >> yeah. the most disadvantaged places in america are in central appalachia, the cotton belt and the tobacco belt and south texas. the social infrastructure, places where people can build social bonds, have really atrophied. they've fallen apart. the bowling alley. it's not that people aren't bowling. it's that there is no bowling alley and so on. as the beauty and barbershops have closed down, people have really lost the ability to connect with one another. in fact, in the book we tie that very closely to the rise of deaths due to opioid overdose. >> let me ask this question. you saw the clip of robert kennedy sr. i was 13 years old when they

were working on the poor people's campaign. one of the things i was struck by is they kept saying it's important what senator robert kennedy sr. was doing, because if we keep the face of poverty black, it plays into certain elements in the congress, and they need to understand this goes beyond just the black community and we need to push out to appalachia and others. do you find that politically a lot of people don't want to feel with the fact that there are many white americans living in poverty with no federal drive to deal with these issues? >> yeah. as you know, kennedy visited one of his poverty tours was in

appalachia. he also visited central california. both white and hispanic poverty feature in this book. it is not only a story of race, but it is interesting that when we say rural people, we think white. in many of these places, you see that blacks and hispanics are in the majority. >> the new book is "the injustice of place, uncovering the legacy of poverty in america." catherine eden, thank you very much for joining us. >> thank you. coming up on "morning joe," a new documentary series delves into the shady business of telemarketing. we'll have a look at how two renegade telemarketers went on a 20-year journey to expose a billion dollar scam. we'll be right back with that. llion dollar scam. bi we'll be right back with that. your car insurance... zs so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need.

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hello, oh, hello. you remember susan from nbc?

>> of course. how are you? >> fine. good to see you. >> and this is cramer. >> hello. >> go ahead, susan, tell him. >> tell me what? >> well, i -- >> i'm sorry, excuse me one second. >> hello. >> hi, would you be interested in switching over to tmi long distance service? >> i can't talk right now. why don't you give me your home number and i'll call you later. >> sorry, we're not allowed to do that. >> i guess you don't want people calling you at home. >> jerry seinfeld giving a telemarketer a taste of his own medicine back in 1992. and now an upcoming hbo docuseries is pulling back the curtain on the contentious trade of telemarketing, detailing a 20-year journey that began in a new jersey call center, telemarketers tells the story of two friends who set off to shine a light on a despised industry

and its manipulation of consumer trust. joining us now is the series narrator and codirector sam lippman stern, the three-part documentary series debuts this sunday on hbo and its streaming service max. sam, great to have you here. >> thanks so much for having me. >> congrats on this. first give us the origin story, how'd this happen? >> i'm going to throughout ow the script there, hello, this is sam lipman stern calling on behalf of the american police heroes association, good afternoon. we're doing the big fund drive. donations go a long way to help, the goal is 55, the smaller silver is 35, and we're going to send you a sticker for your car. you put that sticker on the back of your vehicle, show your proud support for the heroes. i probably did that thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of times calling citizens across the united states asking for donations for police organizations, and that's what

we dive into this very interesting subject matter in this documentary. >> so give us -- tell us how you put together a documentary. who did you talk to? give us a sampling of some of the things you've learned beyond your own experience. >> i left school when i was 14 living in central new jersey, and i needed a job. my parents were like you can leave school but you've got to get a job, so the only job i could get at that age was working at this call center in new brunswick, new jersey, so i went in and they hired me right on the spot, and that started my journey into this wild world of telemarketing, and we just started shooting videos at the office. this is back, you know, i started in 2001, so we started just shooting videos of office shenanigans. there were some teenagers like me, but the majority of the people were like ex-convictions so people right out of halfway houses so you'd have like a murderer on your left-hand side. i was this 14-year-old kid. and you'd have a drug kingpin on

your right. but it was like a dysfunctional family, everyone respected each other. but what we were doing is raising money for these charities. i don't know if you've ever gotten a call for like asking for a donation for the police or something like that? >> certainly have. >> sam, you sound eerily like a call i got, but anyways -- >> it might have been me. >> let me ask, there's laws that really kind of should be weighed in on this. are you hoping because of the documentary that you can encourage lawmakers to in many ways legislate new laws? do laws exist? i'm asking a two-part question. do laws exist that are not being enforced? are you advocating, hoping that you can push them to make laws? >> so we went -- we went all across d.c. and talked to a lot of politicians from the ftc to

the fec to many different people we spoke to, senators as well, and what we were hearing was there's nothing that we can do about this. congress has to take action. so there's -- this has been going on, you'll learn in the show, this has been going on since the invention of the telephone this scam essentially, and you know, the government will go after one telemarketing company, shut it down, and then another one pops up. one of the things that i found fascinating because i worked in the industry from 2001 when i was 14 to 2009 when the company i worked for got shut down, and at the time it was the biggest consumer protection lawsuit in u.s. history. what we found astonishing is right now, 2023, this industry has turned into something crazier, less regulated, more calls, more wild west than it's ever been. >> eye opening and darkly funny.

the three-part series debuts this sunday on hbo and max. sam lipman-stern, congratulations, thank you for being with us. >> thank you so much. that does it for us this morning, busy news day ahead. ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick final break. we'll see you again on monday. i'm saving with liberty mutual, mom. they customize your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. you could save $700 dollars just by switching. ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. on the top of the pile! oh. only pay for what you need.

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